Alice: Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, as we finally rejoin our favorite (only?) Windrunner and his lovely spren. In keeping with the writer’s adage that “long journeys are usually boring to read”—
Lyn: Except in Lord of the Rings.
A: —we haven’t seen Kaladin since he left Urithiru, on his way to Hearthstone with a pocketful of Stormlight, to protect his family from the Everstorm. This week, we’ll walk the last few miles with him, and discuss what he finds there in the first half-hour or so. (Also, how does that adage fit with “journey before destination”? Generalizations sometimes fail.)
If you’re interested in going back to review the discussion when this was previewed, you can check it out here.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week’s Cosmere references are small, and aren’t spoilers unless you’ve never looked at the maps before. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin Stormblessed
WHERE: Hearthstone
WHEN: 1174.1.2.2 (The day after Chapter 4, when Dalinar saw the Everstorm pass Urithiru)
Kaladin is on his way home to Hearthstone, hoping to spare his family from the oncoming Everstorm. However, he runs out of Stormlight after only half a day and doesn’t make it in time. He arrives to find his home in wreckage, but the people appear to be mostly safe within the walls of Roshone’s manor. Kaladin makes his way inside to have a tearful reunion with his mother and father, then lands a very satisfying punch on Roshone.
Threshold of the storm
Titles: “Hearthstone” is… obviously obvious. “Four Lifetimes” is from Kaladin’s thoughts as Lirin argues with the guard captain, and Hesina talks to him like the young son she last knew.
What a surreal sensation, being back here, being treated like he was still the boy who had left for war five years ago. Three men bearing their son’s name had lived and died in that time. The soldier who had been forged in Amaram’s army. The slave, so bitter and angry. His parents had never met Captain Kaladin, bodyguard to the most powerful man in Roshar.
And then … there was the next man, the man he was becoming. A man who owned the skies and spoke ancient oaths. Five years had passed. And four lifetimes.
A: For all we’d looked forward to Kaladin’s homecoming, there are aspects to it that I’d never really considered. Like how very much he’s gone through in the years of absence, and how little his parents know him now, and how much his relation to everything there will have changed.
Heralds: Chapter 5 only shows us Talenel: the Soldier, Herald of War, associated with the attributes Dependable and Resourceful. This seems fairly reasonable; Kaladin is mostly thinking and acting like a soldier who is sneaking into an area that may be controlled by hostile forces, and has been very dependable in carrying out his mission to reach Hearthstone as soon as possible.
Chapter 6, on the other hand… Well, look at the title context, and it makes sense. Vedel, the Healer, as Kaladin was when he left Hearthstone; Talenel, the Soldier, as he became in Amaram’s army, and remained in essence during his time as a slave; Chanarach, the Guard, as he became when Dalinar bought his freedom and took him as a bodyguard; and Jezrien, the King—except with Jezrien, it’s the Windrunner that he is becoming; not the role, but the Radiant order.
Icon: For both chapters, naturally, we have Kaladin’s Spears and Banner icon.
A: Did anyone ever get a solid answer on what the glyphs on that banner are? I know there was discussion in some of the groups, but I can’t find anything about it in the Arcanum.
L: The conversation was in the FB group awhile ago, I don’t think we ever settled on a final answer.
Epigraphs:
I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.
I thought that I was surely dead. Certainly, some who saw farther than I did thought I had fallen.
A: That would be Renarin who “saw farther”? I wonder if he told his father about the things he sees once the Avalanche died out. There’s enough time in that last chapter or so that I assume some useful conversations have taken place, but that we didn’t really need to see them. If this was one, that may be the reference.
Relationships & Romances
Lirin / Hesina / Tien
He’d have to talk to his parents about Tien. It was why he hadn’t tried to contact them after being freed from slavery. Could he face them? Storms, he hoped they lived. But could he face them?
L: ::sobs::
A: I agree; this just hurts to read. Not only did he see his beloved brother die, he’s spent the last five years feeling guilty for failing in his promise to keep Tien safe. He had to come back to save his parents, but if they’re safe… he has to bring his failure out into the open. What he doesn’t understand yet, of course, is that they didn’t ask that promise of him, and they didn’t expect him to keep it, and they will be delighted to have one son back. They’ve done their grieving by now.
Balding, diminutive, thin, bespectacled… and amazing.
L: Kaladin’s relationship with his father is great. It’s so multi-layered. He loves his father and respects him so much, despite the fact that their relationship has been tarnished by the fact that he knows now that his father isn’t a perfect man (those “stolen” spheres).
A: Also, how often does “the young hero” in fiction even have a living father, much less one who is worthy of respect?
L: Kaladin’s interacting with his father here as a man for the first time. When he left, he was still a boy. He’s been through and grown so much in his time away, but he still loves his father just as much as he did when he left. And underneath it all is that sea of guilt, for his failure to save Tien. This is reflected again later, when Kal thinks:
Three men bearing their son’s name had lived and died in that time. The soldier who had been forged in Amaram’s army. The slave, so bitter and angry. His parents had never met Captain Kaladin, bodyguard to the most powerful man in Roshar.
And then… there was the next man, the man he was becoming. A man who owned the skies and spoke ancient oaths. Five years had passed. And four lifetimes.
L: This is just so satisfying, to see how far he’s come in so short a time. He deserves this moment of recognition he’s about to get, this wonder from the people he loves. He’s paid for it with blood and tears and pain.
“Oh, Kal. My boy. My little boy.”
L: Usually when I say things in these rereads like ::sobs:: it’s just internet-speech for “I had feels here,” as I’m sure most of you understand. But this time I am actually tearing up for real. This scene is so pure and wonderful and beautiful and I love everything about it. I am so happy that they’re alive. I’m so happy that Kaladin found them, that he has this one moment of things going right for him.
A: It’s beautiful. It really is. It’s also a little … weird, reading these kinds of scenes, and realizing that I can’t help seeing them through the parents’ eyes now. When we read, we spend most of our time in the minds of Our Heroes, and we naturally see from their perspective. Now I find myself chuckling a little bit at Kaladin. He’d been so focused on his own failure, it never occurred to him that his parents will be overjoyed to have one son return to them, even if it’s just for a short time. Now I’m behind Hesina’s eyes instead of Kaladin’s, and what a joyful moment this is!
Moash
Brightlord Roshone, a man whose greedy ways had ruined far more than one life.
Moash … Kaladin thought as he trudged up the hill toward the manor, shivering in the chill and the darkness. He’d have to face his friend’s betrayal—and near assassination of Elhokar—at some point. For now, he had more pressing wounds that needed tending.
A: Okay, so I’ll admit that I loathe Moash and wish Kaladin would too.
L: F*** MOASH.
A: I find it highly irritating that as soon as he thinks about Roshone, Kaladin immediately thinks about Moash. Worse, when he meets Roshone and punches his lights out, it’s “for my friend Moash”—the dear “friend” who was perfectly willing to kill Kaladin in order to kill the stupid king who was nothing more than a tool for Roshone’s ambition. Kaladin’s loyalty to Moash grates on my nerves, even though I think I’m supposed to admire it.
L: Yeah. This annoys me too, that Kal is still hung up on Moash. But we should remember that though we’ve had a whole book between the events at the end of Words of Radiance, it’s only been a few days for Kal, so the memory is still fresh. He hasn’t had a lot of time to really process what happened between them—and let’s face it, the worst is yet to come. I’ll be really surprised if we go into book 4 with him still feeling this way.
Bruised & Broken
His failure pressed down on him with an almost physical sensation, like the weight of a bridge he was forced to carry all on his own.
A: An interesting simile; not a particularly funny one, but a very Kaladin one. I wonder if his depression will lift somewhat, once he accepts that it’s not his fault Tien died.
Perhaps it was time, for once, to stop letting the rain dictate his mood. He couldn’t banish the seed of darkness inside him, but Stormfather, he didn’t need to let it rule him either.
A: I was SO HAPPY to see this. I thought maybe it would be a big turning point for Kaladin. But life is never that easy, is it? (Or Sanderson books, either.)
L: Never that easy. But recognizing the problem is a step forward, albeit a small one. Kaladin’s seasonal depression has always been a thing I loved about his character, how it’s just so true to life. You have no reason to feel depressed. You know you have no reason to feel depressed. And yet…
A: And yet. Exactly. I do find it moderately disturbing to experience this myself and still get frustrated with Kal for it. I suppose I tend to want my fictional heroes to be better at life than I am, but at the same time, the writing is far better for being so real. Some people are just never satisfied!
Dead.
A part of him scrunched up inside, huddling into a corner, tired of being whipped so often.
L: Poor Kal. Thankfully this time he’s proven wrong, but the poor guy still just can’t catch a break.
These people had never treated him or his family with any measure of kindness.
L: This realization kills me. He’s spent all of this time rushing to get back home, only to find that home isn’t what he expected it to be. Age and wisdom have opened his eyes to the truth—the only thing he ever really loved about home is his family. I think some people who have returned home after being away for a long time have had feelings similar to this—I know I have. Home isn’t a place, not entirely—it’s the people that reside there. The people who care about us. Without them, the memories can be dead and lifeless, or at least not feel quite as full as they did before.
A: To a certain extent, I’ll agree with that. When I return to where I grew up, I’m looking forward to seeing my family more than anything. On the other hand, the woods where I played as a child, the familiar shape of the mountains behind, the hills where I searched out the earliest glacier lilies—those will always be home to me, even with no one there.
But then, I wasn’t surrounded by the kind of antagonism Kaladin’s family experienced, so there’s that.
“I’m sorry, Mother, Father,” he whispered. “I joined the army to protect him, but I could barely protect myself. … I let Tien die. I’m sorry. It’s my fault…”
L: Can I just… pick him up and hug him? Precious little cinnamon roll is too pure for this or any world.
A: I want to hug him and shake him at the same time. It is not his fault! He was a 15-year-old kid who had very little absolutely no say in where he or his brother were sent. While I admire Young!Kaladin’s determination to protect Tien, it was never a promise he could keep. It was beyond his capacity—which is, of course, why his father was so against his going.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
Look at the wounded people in this room, Kaladin. You’re missing something.
The wounded … they displayed fractures. Concussions. Very few lacerations. This was not the aftermath of a battle, but of a natural disaster. So what had happened to the Voidbringers? Who had fought them off?
A: We’ll begin to answer this mystery next week, but at this point it’s worth noting Kaladin’s expectations. He came here hoping to warn his parents (and their neighbors, why not) of the wrong-way storm that was coming. But he was equally expecting that the parshmen would take stormform when it hit, and that they would immediately start attacking the humans. It’s a reasonable assumption, though apparently not one that everyone held (see last week’s discussion). Right now, he’s just a bit bewildered that there was no battle.
Flora & Fauna
Rockbuds here grew almost as big as barrels, with vines as thick as his wrist spilling out and lapping water from the pools on the stone. Fields of vibrant green grass pulled back into burrows before him, easily three feet tall when standing at height….
The grass back near the Shattered Plains had barely reached as high as his ankle, and had mostly grown in yellowish patches on the leeward side of hills. He was surprised to find that he distrusted this taller, fuller grass.
A: This inevitably reminds my of Rysn and her contempt for the stupid, slow grass of Shinovar. Heh. But it makes a good reminder that the Plains are naturally inhospitable, especially compared to these northern reaches of Alethkar. At least part of it would be the climate, as Hearthstone would be nearly or altogether tropical, for whatever the Rosharan version of tropical looks like, rather than the temperate-to-arctic latitude of the Shattered Plains.
Kaladin noticed a bit of debris peeking out of the grass, and he trudged toward it. The foliage obligingly pulled back before him, revealing a broken wooden churn, the kind used for turning sow’s milk into butter.
A: That sounds so weird and repulsive, but it probably isn’t. And hey—sow’s milk butter would be better than no butter at all, right?
Which reminds me of a funny; apparently at the Emerald City Comic Con last weekend, someone got Brandon to write in their book, “Lift and Hoid disagree on bacon.” No clue whether this means that Lift dislikes bacon, or whether they disagree on how it should be cooked, or only on who should be eating it… but when someone posted the picture on facebook, it made someone wonder if they have pigs on Roshar. I love it when someone else does that, too…
L: Someone on the FB group mentioned that they thought Lift was vegetarian, which makes me wonder… have we ever seen Lift eat meat? I’d have to go back and look…
A: She ate a sausage in her first Interlude, trying to replenish her Stormlight to get away from Darkness. I don’t think she’s ever had the luxury of being picky about what she eats.
Places & Peoples
A: We’re including the map again this week, because it gives a good frame of reference for Kaladin’s last three days. Put a bookmark there, if you like following maps, because Kaladin spends all of Part One wandering around on that map.
Four days ago, he’d traveled by Oathgate to the Shattered Plains, then flown to the northwest at speed. Filled to bursting with Stormlight—and carrying a wealth more in gemstones—he’d been determined to reach his home, Hearthstone, before the Everstorm returned.
After just half a day, he’d run out of Stormlight somewhere in Aladar’s princedom. He’d been walking ever since. Perhaps he could have flown all the way to Hearthstone if he’d been more practiced with his powers. As it was, he’d traveled over a thousand miles in half a day, but this last bit—ninety or so miles—had taken an excruciating three days.
He hadn’t beaten the Everstorm. It had arrived earlier in the day, around noon.
L: Okay, so… a thousand miles in a half a day. If my math is right, that’s about 83 miles an hour (providing Kaladin’s considering 12 hours a half a day). Average human walking speed is about 3mph, so if he’s walking 10 hours out of every day, the math works out right. (Now… Roshar has a different length of day than Earth, so none of this is an exact analogy, but I’m simply not a good enough mathematician to figure out anything past this.) I like having a general idea for how fast he can fly, and it’s interesting to realize just how swiftly he runs through Stormlight, considering how slowly Shallan burns through it later on in Oathbringer.
A: That’s kind of funny. It never occurred to me to figure out how fast he was flying, even without making all the adjustments for distance and time measurements. The half-day is probably 10 hours instead of 12, but then the mile would need adjusting too, and I don’t know what the ratio is. In any case, this should be a reasonable approximation. ::applauds:: (For my own sanity, I’m going to assume that gravitational acceleration is not in play when falling sideways. Just sayin’.)
L: I was an English Major in college. You’ve gone so far over my head there that you’re in the stratosphere.
A: Now here’s the really funny part: my first thought was, “That’s not very fast! If you’re going to let the guy fly, why not give him some real speed?” And then I started thinking about moving 80 mph with no windshield and no vehicle of any kind to provide cover from the wind of passage, much less any airborne debris (I guess that’s one good thing about not having any wild birds!), and I think 80 is plenty fast enough. I wonder whether Brandon and Peter sat down and worked that out to decide where and when to have Kaladin run out of Stormlight.
Oh, yeah, and Kal notes that the Everstorm arrived around noon in central Alethkar. We know from Chapter 4 that it had hit Urithiru the previous evening, so we can refer to the global map to get an idea of how fast it moves.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Wow,” Syl said, zipping up to Kaladin’s shoulder. “That is quite the glare you gave.”
L: Kal and his black looks and grumpiness will never, ever get old to me. It also cracks me up that he just keeps ignoring this poor guard and wandering around, doing his own thing.
A: Lol! After awhile, you almost have to feel sorry for the guard. He’s trying, but the prisoner just keeps ignoring him!
Roshone wore a lighteyes’ coat that was several seasons out of fashion—Adolin would have shaken his head at that.
L: I giggled. I love that Kal knows him well enough by now to know this.
A: I know, right? And that he thinks of Adolin right now! It makes me happy.
“Storms, what did you do, boy? Hit a lighteyes?”
“Yes,” Kaladin said.
Then punched him.
L: YES KALADIN. This was just perfection.
A: I can argue all day on why this was stupid and unnecessary, but I still cheer when I read it.
L: Oh yes, absolutely unnecessary—but so, so satisfying. And so human.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
A: Kaladin punches Roshone “for Moash”—why not “for Tien”? Why not for his own brother, who died for Roshone’s petty vengeance? Why not for himself, who suffered a loss as great as Moash’s? Why not for Lirin and Hesina, who suffered that same loss plus ongoing mistreatment for the last five years?
L: Maybe it’s just because Moash’s revelation of his own betrayal is fresher in Kaladin’s mind. He’s just had a bit of… atonement? regarding Tien, so the pain of it might not be as fresh relatively speaking as for Moash.
A: Also, why does Kaladin spend so much time sitting there listening to his parents arguing with the captain instead of just telling them the story? (I mean, I have an answer for that, but it’s an obvious question.)
L: It seemed to me like he was lost in thought, just… taking everything in after so long.
A: It appears that this bothered me on the beta as well—I think it’s mostly that I’m not used to Kaladin being so inactive except when he’s been completely beaten down. Here, he’s not beaten down at all; he’s reached Hearthstone, found his parents alive and had an emotional reunion, and now he just sits there drinking soup and listening to his father try to make arrangements for something that Kaladin knows is completely unnecessary. I can understand me doing that, but it feels a little OOC for him.
L: I can see that, but he’s also totally exhausted. No stormlight, walking for three days… Even Kaladin’s got limits!
A: But he’s The Hero! He can’t have limits! … Oh, wait. Okay, then.
Cosmere Connections
Artemis asked last week, “Regarding the map of Alethkar posted in the article, it is interesting that Hearthstone is marked in handwriting with the note “annotated for your convenience.” I assume this is Nazh’s writing. Why is this important enough to note? I find it odd that worldhoppers would care where Kaladin grew up, or where his family lives. I suppose they are researching the KRs’ backgrounds, but why?”
A: I’m sure it’s Nazh’s writing, and Hearthstone is the only handwritten notation on the map. Why Khriss would want to know is anyone’s guess, though. Unless other members of Kaladin’s family are developing bonds, “Kaladin’s birthplace” is about the only reason I can think of for her to find it of interest.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He splashed through puddles where rainspren grew, blue candles with eyes on the very tip.
L: These things creep me out. Are they just eyeballs floating where the flame should be, or is the eye lidded in blue flame? Either way… creepy.
A: I’ve always thought that, too. It’s one of the weirder images.
Shockspren, like pale yellow triangles breaking and reforming, appeared behind her.
A: This appears to be the first time we’ve seen shockspren.
“Wow,” Syl said. “Gloomspren.”
Kaladin looked up and noted an unusual spren whipping about. Long, grey, like a tattered streamer of cloth in the wind. It wound around him, fluttering. He’d seen its like only once or twice before. “Why are they so rare?” Kaladin asked. “People feel gloomy all the time.” “Who knows?” Syl said. “Some spren are common. Some are uncommon.” She tapped his shoulder. “I’m pretty sure one of my aunts liked to hunt these things.”
L: I find the hunting part to be the most interesting part of this. So… do the highspren need to eat? Do they hunt the lower spren for food, or just for sport? Do they let them go after they catch them? If they kill them, will there be less gloominess in the physical realm?
A: I have no answers for any of those. For the last one, I’ll say that it would depend on which is the cause and which is the effect, and we’ve never solidly answered that questions as far as I know. If spren cause natural phenomena, hunting them in the Cognitive should reduce their effects in the Physical. If they’re simply drawn to the emotion when it happens from other causes, then there wouldn’t be any effect, except not having the things flapping around your head every time the depression hits. I could see that as a benefit to hunting them…
“They’re like I remember them.”
“Syl, you never knew me when I lived here.”
“That’s true.”
“So how can you remember them?”
“Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds. The winds are of Honor. We are kindred blood.”
L: This is really neat. I find it interesting how closely tied the honorspren are to windspren. Makes me wonder if other highspren have close ties to lower spren… What would Pattern and the Cryptics be most closely tied to?
A: The only one we know solidly is the honorspren/windspren connection, but others have been postulated. Cryptics (Pattern) to creationspren, cultivationspren (Wyndle) to lifespren, and maybe highspren to starspren as I suggested recently. Possibly Siblings (Bondsmith spren) to gloryspren? They’re all speculation to one degree or another, though I think those first two are strong candidates, while the others are shakier. I’ve wondered if ashspren (which we’re told later are the Dustbringer spren) might be cousins to flamespren.
L: Oh yeah, I had forgotten about the lifespren showing up around Lift in Edgedancer.
“Besides, there was… another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…”
L: Hmm. The mysterious God we were talking about last week, you think? Or maybe just the Mother Honorspren we see later in Rock’s chapter?
A: An Unsolved Mystery! There’s been speculation, of course. I hadn’t considered that it could be the voice of the God Beyond, though someone suggested that Cultivation might have been responsible. I didn’t think that the other honorspren were watching humans that early in the process, but I’m not sure they weren’t. One of the more popular theories I saw was that Tien may have been in the process of bonding a spren; if so, it could fit with Mraize’s later statement (Chapter 40) that the Skybreakers records show that “the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.” I’m not sure if I believe that or not, but it’s an interesting theory. Except… probably not, because if he’d bonded a spren, those wounds wouldn’t have killed him. I wonder who it was, though.
Quality Quotations
- He couldn’t banish the seed of darkness inside him, but Stormfather, he didn’t need to let it rule him either.
- The mere memory of that red storm outside his hollow made panic rise inside him. The Everstorm was so wrong, so unnatural—like a baby born with no face. Some things just should not be.
- Syl zipped up in front of him, a ribbon of light. “Your eyes are brown again,” she noted. It took a few hours without summoning his Shardblade. Once he did that, his eyes would bleed to a glassy light blue, almost glowing.
- The parshmen had been housed in a small structure built in the manor’s shadow, with a single open chamber and benches for sleeping. Kaladin reached it by touch and felt at a large hole ripped in the side.
- Then his eyes opened wide.
“Hello, Father,” Kaladin said.
A: That’s what we’ve got this week. Next week we’ll tackle Chapter 7. It’s a long one, as Kaladin gets down to the business of Next Steps.
Oh, and while we’re here… I asked Brandon about some point of discussion at ECCC last weekend, and here’s the answer: “Here you go, blanket statement: Alice is always right. Tell them I said so.” Or words to that effect, anyway. WOOOOOT! I’m right! Whatever it is, I’m right! …
… at least until the next book comes out and proves me wrong….
Alice had a lot of fun working with Kara and Mem at the Dragonsteel booth last weekend at the Emerald City Comic Con. As expected, she completely forgot almost all the questions she’d been thinking of asking Brandon, like whether gloryspren are “cousins” to the Siblings. Sigh. But it was great fun.
Lyndsey is getting progressively more stressed out as Anime Boston approaches—running one of the largest events at a con of about 20k people is practically a full-time job. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
80 mph is reasonable. Remember, Kaladin is actually falling under gravity. There is no propulsion here. Terminal velocity in belly-to-earth free fall is 120 mph.
I think if Kaladin hadn’t seen how weak Roshon was, he might have followed up with the old “and this one’s for” etc. Tien, “my parents”, and “me.”
I was kinda disappointed that Kaladin’s stop at home was so brief in the book.
Chapter six is honestly one of my favourite chapters in this book, thank you both for writing this article, and I have so many comments, so forgive the long post:
First, Lirin must be one of the few people in Alethkar who would be happier to know his son was a deserter who fled from combat than he would be if he knew his son killed a shardbearer and won a blade. I wonder how he thinks about Kaladin now that he knows that shardblade is not quite like all the others.
Overall, their reunion was wonderful, and I’m happy some people’s dire predictions that Kaladin’s parents would be angry at him were not true.
Kaladin has grown up, and grown past Hearthstone, and it’s good character development, but it’s also kind of sad. On the other hand, his complete disinterest in what the guard was trying to make him do was hilarious, especially how it was played as a background funny moment.
Interestingly, I reread Roshone’s scenes in Way of Kings a while ago, and his eye colour changes! In WoK his eyes are green and here they are yellow. I wonder why. We’ve had other characters change eye colour before, and I think Brandon Sanderson then said he changed Elhokar’s eye colour to parallel Gavilar’s and Moash’s eye colour to parallel Amaram’s.. so is this just a mistake, or is he trying to parallel two characters (or specifically avoid this phenomenon, as Elhokar’s eye colour is green, and we’re going to continue Elhokar’s redemption arc this book?)
A very interesting quote from Chapter 100 that might connect to the four lifetimes: ‘It seemed that Dalinar had been four people in his life. The bloodthirsty warrior, who killed wherever he was pointed, and the consequences could go to Damnation. The general, who had feigned distinguished civility, when secretly he’d longed to get back on the battlefield so he could shed more blood. Third, the broken man, the one who paid for the actions of the youth. Then finally, the fourth man: the most false of them all. The man who had given up his memories so he could pretend to be something better.’
We could say similarly that Shallan has been/is four people as well. The broken girl, the happy scholar, the thief Veil, and Brightness Radiant. I think at least Dalinar and Kaladin’s stories are about becoming someone better (especially Dalinar’s), journey before destination and all that.
@@.-@ Elle. This is a cool analysis and now I wonder if the sibling or Cultivation might be connected to 4 the way Honor likes 10 and odium likes 9.
I also think the reason for using Taln/The Herald of War in the first chapter is Kaladin is flying in to warn Hearthstone of the Everstorm. The Everstorm is returning the Voidbringers, which in turn is restarting an age old conflict. So in a way he is Heralding the coming War.
I agree regarding Renarin being the one to see farther than anyone else regarding Dalinar falling. It is just the kind of sneaky foreshadowing Brandon would put in. Literally telling you what is going to happen without you know what is going to happen lol.
No chapter icons shown this week?
Loving this reread and the comments. Everyone always seems to see so much more than I do, and it’s fascinating to read the discussion.
I remember last winter when Arcanum Unbounded came out, Sanderson did a signing in New Jersey. After his speech he did a reading of these 2 chapters. I remember tearing up. I have since read them 3 more times and each time I tear up. Kaladin’s reunion with his parents is by far my favorite chapters in the book. All the feelz.
Side question, just because it was briefly touched on by Alice, Tien could have been the one who had started to bond a spren. If he was still in the stage before giving the first oath he could have still been easily killed, like Elhokar, who was seeing spren since WOK but still hadn’t said any oaths. The letter only said that the person had started to bond, not about what stage s/he was at. And if it wasn’t Tien, do we have any guesses on who else it could have been?
@@.-@ Elle, great spotting with the parallel to Dalinar and Shallan’s “four people” thing. I definitely don’t think it is a coincidence, and I wonder if any of the other radiants have or will have this pattern!
The comment about Adolin was great! I was like ‘Hah, Kaladin, we all knew you guys would be Best Friends Forever!’
I was hoping to come up with a theory about the spren hunting thing….but I got nothing! Seems very strange though, was her aunt hunting them because they were gloom spren and therefore not desirable? But I don’t really remember any other spren displaying this kind of animosity towards other spren. I mean Syl hates cryptics, but she doesn’t hunt them!
I loved these chapters! To the extent that I kept expecting Kaladin to return to Heartstone eventually, as he promised, and felt a bit let down when it turned out that his frantic flight in the last chapter of OB wasn’t to fetch his family… But I have just come across a very intriguing WoB from the Emerald City Comic Con:
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Are both of Kaladin’s maternal grandparents darkeyes?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No. Good question. I think you’re the first one to pull that out of me.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9290
Which agrees with what I have suspected after my recent SA re-read and maybe hints under what circumstances Kaladin will see his family again – and meet his maternal relatives, heh.
Moash – yea, why “for Moash”?! Roshone basically murdered Tien! I also expected Kaladin to fess up about his role in the murder attempt on Ehlokar at some point and for that to lead to a growth opportunity for both of them. Alas.
Also, poor Lirin and Hesina – they thought that they had lost both of their sons, Kaladin’s sense of misplaced guilt hurting them even worse than Tien’s death. Then Kal miracliously appeared alive – only to assault Roshone and seemingly put himself in mortal danger yet again! Could have caused some heart attacks there, boy. Not that I didn’t love Roshone-punch, but your parents have suffered enough.
As to the guard – you’d think that Roshone could have hired a former soldier, rather than somebody who has no clue about fighting or subduing anybody? I mean, term of enlistment is just 4 years, are we to assume that none of the men and boys who joined the army together with Kaladin came back? That would suggest a horrenduously high casuality rate. And the captain is somehow similarly incompetent, when there must be a lot of experienced ex-soldier tenners looking to settle down to a less dangerous occupation…
I am also continuously bemused by the choices the original refugees from Ashyn and then the settlers who spread across Roshar made concerning their domestic animals. Like, poultry is an easy source of proteins and doesn’t require much looking after. You can easily feed them left-overs and cremlings and herd them inside for the highstorms and such. Goats eat everything and are quite hardy animals. I agree that sheep and cows may be too dumb/delicate to survive outside Shinovar, but IIRC there is no indication that they have them even there. I mean, I get pigs and can even believe that they are able survive in the wild of Roshar, as they are intelligent and adaptable, but why did the refugees prioritize horses and minks(?!) over those other animals and why don’t people keep poultry everywhere on Roshar? Why no dogs? Though, admittedly some “minks” may actually be cats.
Per Oathbringer, the Rosharans know of pigs.
I remember during the beta how much Kal punching Roshone bothered me as being beneath his station and undignified, though that didn’t seem a popular opinion at the time.
@11 They have axehounds which to me seem like a dog equivalent.
@8 dashichka
I personally agree that Tien could have been bonding a spren. There is a letter Mraize gives Shallan regarding the Skybreakers hunting Radiants where they mention there was someone possibly bonding a spren in Amaram’s army, but that they died, and he confirms it is not referring to Kaladin. I could have sworn there was a WoB that confirmed Tien wasn’t bonding a spren, but I was unable to locate it, and this tidbit from Mraize makes me think it was Tien.
@9 light makes shadow
I think the hunting of gloomspren is to show spren have a society that in many ways mimic our own. It was mentioned when they were in shadesmar how honorspren are not very well liked as they tend to go around conquering and taking other lands. I feel this is meant to be a mirror to the Alethi. I think the reason that Syl doesn’t hunt Cryptics is it was commented on how they are almost like nobility over in shadesmar. So this could hint that gloomspren are more animalistic. One can wonder what they might look like if anger spren results in all that we see is bloody drool.
@10 Isilel
I think (I could be remembering incorrectly), but in the conversation with Gaz, they thought they would only be there a max of 4 years, but the Highprinces kept extending it because it was profitable to them when they found out about the gem hearts. So the soldiers were basically forced into two choices, either stay and try to survive while possibly dying at the hands of the parshendi, or desert and potentially get hunted/killed by your own people. Pretty crummy choices to me. So all that’s left could be the rejects that don’t know that the point side goes up lol.
Good questions regarding the animals. My one thought regarding chickens is the fragility of the eggs and how easily it would be for a local predator to gobble them up and run off. True they could be kept in bunkers, but maybe without corn feed (I do not know chicken’s exact dietary needs), they were not able to sustain feeding them outside Shinovar. Just some thoughts. Minks seem to refer to any furred mammal (lions, rats, ferrets, cats, etc).
I love these chapters and the idea that coming home, under any circumstances, never works out quite like we’d always thought it would. Because not only has Kal changed SO much in these chapters but also Lirin and Hesina as well. They’ve grieved for both their boys and started over, both with kids and with a new apprentice as well. They aren’t the same as when Kal left and Roshone has gotten older and weaker as well. I still tear up reading the reunion even though I’ve read it at least 3 or 4 times. And like Alice I get frustrated that Kaladin is just sitting there with soup and a blanket while his dad starts going to bat for him. It is so easy to fall into our old roles even when things are so different than they were when we-or Kal-were young.
“Journey before destination” would bind Radiants. It doesn’t bind Brandon Sanderson, who is not one.
“Highspren” are a type of spren, namely the ones who Nahel bond with Skybreakers. I believe the sapient spren are “true spren” and the uthinking ones are “subspren” in the narrative.
@9 light_makes_shadow
About the spren, at several points in Shadesmar, in this book and in Jasnah’s after-WoR interlude, humans are warned that painspren, and angerspren are very dangerous (very harmmore), and that they should avoid them. Chapter 101: ‘Don’t stray too far outside; with human cities nearby, there will be angerspren in the area.‘
I don’t think it’s animosity, I think that while higher/radiant spren are the human equivalent of the cognitive realm, lower spren are basically Cognitive Realm fauna. And some of those fauna are apparently chasmfiends.
@10 Isilel
I think animals like ‘minks’ and rats kind of went exploring on their own. I don’t think they were taken by humans on purpose. Horses were probably bought from Shinovar a long time after the humans had already settled in the east, after the ‘Shin invasions’ showed how useful they could be in a war.
@11 WinespringBrother
Pigs/hogs are actually mentioned in the Way of Kings, where they have both hogshide and sow’s cheese.
Alice: At this point in OB, Kaladin is the only Windrunner. By the end of OB, that is not the case.
FYI. The chapter icons did not show up underneath the stone arches for the two chapters.
Alice & Lyndsey re Moash. What irritates me more than Kaladin’’s loyalty for Moash is Kaladin’s initial refusal to take ownership of his actions. Kaladin punches Roshone. Yet Kaladin says this is for somebody else who is not here and could not punch you himself. Deep down, I think that Kaladin really wanted to punch Roshone because Kaladin loathed Roshone for what Roshone has done to Kaladin and his family. If it were not for Roshone’s vindictiveness, then Tien would not have gone off to war and may have been alive today.
This is one of my least favorite characteristics of Kaladin: Kaladin’s failure to take ownership of his own actions. Kaladin is too willing to blame others’ actions or inactions for what Kaladin does or does not do. In my opinion, this is a sign of Kaladin’s immaturity.
Alice: I took his dislike of the taller, fuller grass as a byproduct of ingrained his military training has become. He looks at tall grass as a place where it is easier for enemies to hide than the grass on the Shattered Plains.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
So I am not excusing Kaladin thinking of Moash instead of all the other people Roshone harmed. I agree he should have thought of Tien but I think the reason might be chronological. Had Roshone not convinced Elhokar to jail Moash’s parents resulting in their deaths, Roshone would not have been punished and cast out to Hearthstone. Had he not been punished and cast out to Hearthstone, he would not have punished Lirin by sending Tien to war. Had he not punished Lirin by sending Tien to war, Tien would be alive today. So it did kind of all start with Moash and his family.
Is one of these not the chapter where Kaladin inhales Stormlight, levitates off the ground, and announces the rebirth of the Knights Radiant and that this time they won’t fail?
That scene was the first scene (of many in this book), that gave me shivers.
I love that Kaladin has a passing thought of Adolin. Someone on 17thShard went thorough all the times Adolin was thinking of or mentioning Kaladin and it was more than his thoughts of Shallan.
Brandon also made an interesting comment at ECCC about Syl’s “I knew you then even though I hadn’t met you” line, basically pointing at Connection and spiritual realm shenanigans.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9280
Regarding Kal’s speed, I think you need to double it since “half a day” doesn’t mean dawn until dusk to me, it means half of the available daylight. So 5-ish hours, which puts him going roughly 200 mph. That’s VERY fast, but reasonable for terminal velocity in thinner atmosphere, depending on body orientation and whether he used multiple lashings.
Walker @1 – Yeah… I thought about trying to sort out the gravitational effects, but that would mean doing physics again. By the time you take into account the planetary differences between Roshar and Earth, and then work out gravitational acceleration, and identify your assumptions wrt: what kind of gravity the planet still exerts even when the Surge is manipulated to make a horizontal vector “down”… well, I’m a geek, but I’m not quite that much of a geek today!
Elle @@.-@ – Good stuff there! About Roshone’s eyes, I think that has to be an oversight. Brandon had a specific reason to change Elhokar’s eye color, but I think we all just failed to go back and see if Roshone’s eye color had been mentioned before.
soursavior @5 – Well, now, isn’t that an interesting idea… That would be cool, if Cultivation likes 4. I’d say something about the Parsh have genders, but I think they were around – with their 4 genders – before Cultivation and Honor arrived. Still, it will now be Fun to watch for fours.
Bridge Four!
mathbard @7 – Sorry about the missing icons. We’re getting that fixed.
dashichka @8 – I’m still wondering about that Surgebinder in Amaram’s army, and that was one of the questions I’d meant to ask Brandon last weekend. If Tien was still in the pre-1st Ideal stage, it doesn’t seem likely that the Skybreakers would have known about him, but it would make sense of virtually everything else. My other curiosity about the “pure voice” in Hearthstone is whether Hesina had anything to do with it. I can’t put my finger on anything about her, but I sure would like to know more about her.
Isilel @9 – NICE WOB!!! Like I said, I so badly want to know more about her… But that makes sense. We knew it was a social descent for her to marry Lirin, even though he’s second nahn, but she’s clearly not light-eyed. Nice to have confirmation that one of her parents was, and I do hope we get more sometime soon.
Mike E. @18 – Next week. It’s an excellent scene.
@Alice “A: Also, how often does “the young hero” in fiction even have a living father, much less one who is worthy of respect?”
I immediately thought: Rand Al’ Thor!
Kind of a nice similarity.
@21 Wetlander
I think if we are to believe what Mraize is saying, then Tien might have already bonded a spren. Perhaps the reason he died is he didn’t have stormlight near at hand to heal with. Either way here is the quote below:
“From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated. The bridgeman was not, so far as we understand, known to them. If he had been, he would certainly have been killed during his months as a slave”
@21 & @23 Syl was following Kal around for all of WoK and he didn’t say the first oath till the end of the book. But they were still bonded right? Enough so that he almost killed her even before saying the oaths. Tien could have also had a spren he was socializing with. If someone from the Skybreakers was watching out for such a bond and was able to see the spren, it wouldn’t take a genius to see where it was headed. All the evidence points to Tien. I thought Sanderson had said before that Tien was definitely not bonding a spren, but now I can’t find anything to back that up so I might be making that up. And I did stumble on this exchange which has a lot of good point for him being a Lightweaver in the making, before his death of course.
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62690-ob-tien/
@Alice–“I asked Brandon about some point of discussion at ECCC last weekend, and here’s the answer: “Here you go, blanket statement: Alice is always right. Tell them I said so.”
What was the point of discussion? :-p
@24 dashichka
That does open up a lot of questions. Does Syl remembering Kal when he was little count as a spren bond? Does Syl hanging out with Kaladin in the slave wagons count as a spren bond? Is it only after saying the first oath? Does what Mraize consider a spren bond be canon for us for what a spren bond is? Or is that what he considers a spren bond, but the canon for us term is different? These are all genuine questions I do not have the slightest answer to lol. This also opens up to if we consider that early time with Kal a spren bond, then when was Dalinar bonded? When was Shallan? Are squires considered bonded as the spren are checking them out prior to saying the oaths and using stormlight? Tien being pre-first oath would definitely explain his death a lot better than not having stormlight on hand to use. This gives me a lot to think on…..hmmmmmm.
The punch-on-behalf-of-my-worst-best-frienemy makes sense. He’d spent so much energy blaming himself for Tien that he no longer held Roshone responsible for that death, Lirin brought his problems on himself, and his mother was a victim of her husband. Moash, in his mind is the only pure victim of Roshone at this point.
Wetlandernw @21:
The Skybreakers knew about Stump in “Edgedancer”, who was in the pre-First Ideal stage, though – or at least they knew that a budding surge-binder lived in Yeddaw. And in the Ghostblood letter to Shallan it is mentioned that Nale has the ability to somehow detect and track down people who are “close to” forming a spren-bond.
Stump is actually a good example for how Tien could have died – although a nascent Truthwatcher with a Surge of Regrowth, she couldn’t instinctively heal herself when unconscious and bleeding out. A sword-thrust through the heart, even with a steel blade, would have definitely killed her.
Re: changing eye colors, the same thing happens to Highprince Hatham in OB – in chapter 104 he has green eyes, and then in chapter 107 light orange ones.
Concerning nutrituional needs of sapient spren :D – didn’t we see in the Shadesmar chapters that they feed off highstorm investiture? They became more vibrant and energetic whenever one was nearby and Syl was witsfully longing for a highstorm that was out of the way of their ship. So, I very much doubt that they hunt gloomspren et al. for food.
Dashichka @24:
While I am convinced that Tien was becoming a Lightweaver, Kaladin has also been around Elhokar and Hoid (who was a Yolish-style one even before nabbing Elhokar’s Cryptic) in addition to Shallan, so that WoB isn’t quite as informative as it seems, alas.
Thanks Lyndsey and Alice,
Re: the epigraphs – I believe this was the time where a number of folks on the preview chapters were all but convinced that Jasnah was the author of Oathbringer. Those were some interesting discussions…
Re: Moash – yeah, I remember hoping that Moash would not receive a redemption arc around this point in OB. Unfortunately, I got my wish. Wow, did Brandon really go in the opposite direction of a redemption arc…
It was great to see Kaladin’s reunion with his parents. And I loved that the chapter ended with Kaladin punching Roshone.
@28 Can we count Hoid as a Lightweaver? He’s so much more than that, no? I kind of assumed that since he’s not Rosharian he can’t be considered a real Surgebinder, even if his magic lets him imitate it. Like, he has a billion (might be an exaggeration) breaths, but he’s not a Returned, though I guess you don’t need to be Returned to hold a billion breaths. He can use allomancy but he’s not really a mistborn, is he? Also, I posted the link because I thought the whole discussion was interesting. I realize the WOB was very limited in answers considering Elhokar can be included, too.
scath @23 – Lack of Stormlight could do it, I think; at least, Jasnah made sure she would always have a hidden source of Stormlight handy in case of assassination attempts, and whenever we see active healing, it seems to involve Stormlight. At the same time, I’m can’t remember for sure that all it takes to kill a Radiant is to run them out of Stormlight and then stick something pointy in them.
dashichka @24 – By the time Kaladin almost killed Syl, he’d spoken the first two Ideals. Also, that’s an excellent discussion you linked, and now I’m almost convinced that Tien was in the process of bonding a Cryptic.
defiant @25 – The point of discussion was pretty minor: why Kadash tossed his cookies at Rathalas. Brandon didn’t want to either confirm or deny my position verbally, because he was being recorded, but some of his non-verbal reaction makes me believe I was correct in thinking it was primarily because Kadash realized that he had just killed Evi. But the “Alice is always right” has more history than that; I have a habit of finding little things that make me curious, and then I dig and dig until I’m pretty well convinced, and then I ask him and he won’t tell me. Heh. Sometimes I’ll get an off-the-record response, and those almost always prove me right, or at least barking up the right tree. I’m usually wrong on major theories; it’s just these little unimportant ones that I get right. Usually.
Isilel @28 – Oh, good call on Stump! There are definite similarities there. I can buy that.
dashichka @30 – Brandon calls some of what Hoid does Lightweaving. It’s the Yolish version, not the result of bonding a Cryptic, but it’s still Lightweaving. Therefore, Hoid is a Lightweaver. Not a Knight Radiant (yet), but a Lightweaver. Brandon likes to give Aes Sedai answers, yes, he does.
@31 – Alice, I recognized you!
Chapter six is among my very favourites in this book, and I had so many emotions and some little observations/theories (whooping with joy as his parents recognize him, wanting to just hold Kal when he breaks down after telling that he failed Tien, giggling when he thinks of what Adolin would think, noticing Roshone’s changing eye color like Elle, thinking he punched Roshone “for Moash” because Moash’s parents were where it all started, like scath said, agreeing with AndrewHB that high grass is suspicious as you can never know who might be hiding in it, etc.), but I’m late for the party and too sleepy to think of even one more cent to add, nevermind two, so I’ll just send my love for the chapters and the wonderful comments.
@Isilel, thank you for the WoB. I had not heard of it and it is very intriguing (although not surprising, if to think of it).
And kudos to Lyndsey for the math.
So some of this is based on recollection, some of it by reference because unfortunately at this time I cannot do the research I would like to, so without further ado:
Stump: as of beginning/middle of edgedancer used stormlight from exchanging money to unconsciously heal her orphans. She needs to actively pull stormlight in to heal herself and is unable to due to being knocked out by Darkness. At the end Lift and her talk and Stump admits a “strange spren” has been hanging around her, and she then realizes she had been doing the healing. So spren is present, and she unconsciously uses her abilties
Kaladin (this part is off of recollection): Syl was a “presence” but not seen back in Hearthstone when Kal first picked up the spear. She was also a “presence” by not seen yet when Kaladin lost Tien. Kaladin had not shown stormlight feeding yet. During the slaving caravan Syl shows herself and talks with Kaladin. No stormlight use at this point nor abilities. During his run taking Rock’s place was I believe the first time he absorbs stormlight and uses it to fuel adhesion (this is my own theory that it is adhesion and not gravity as Szeth in Oathbringer states that Skybreakers only have gravitation so do not have access to all of the lashes) to draw the arrows away from his body towards his hands.
So using those two as examples, I theorize that when a spren starts talking to you, you can draw in stormlight, and unconsciously use your first surge is when the bond begins. I believe (could be wrong regarding Kaladin as this is off of memory), was prior to him swearing the 1st ideal of life before death. If this is the case, then things got a lot more interesting :)
edit: I confirmed it was before he swore the 1st ideal. When he switched with Rock, he hadn’t met Teft yet and Teft is the one that taught him the first ideal.
Austin @32 – That’s me! I’m disappointed that they didn’t transcribe the “Alice is always right” part, though. :D
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 31, Re: healing: There might be something more definitive, but the thing I remember from the final battle is (Kaladin’s PoV):
I assume he’s thinking that from experience, and I definitely have the impression that we actually get direct confirmation somewhere, but I can’t pull up a reference right now. (The search function in Kindle is quirky, and trying to do it on my phone is not helping.)
Regarding Kaladin’s thoughts of Moash in these chapters, it doesn’t surprise me that he still thinks of Moash as a friend. Loyalty and friendship are so huge to him, it seems realistic that it would take time for him to admit the full scope of Moash’s betrayal, and would try to rationalize his behavior for a while. As Lyndsey pointed out, it’s only been a few days since the Elhokar incident and he hasn’t yet accepted that Moash tried to kill him. Kaladin will probably continue to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while. I don’t recall him ever thinking of Moash in a friendly way (or at all) after the scene in the Kholinar palace, so maybe that was the breaking point of their friendship.
I’ve always liked the theory that Tien was bonding a Cryptic. His fondness for stones and noticing their colors/strata, along with his creative carving of the horse seem to point to him being an artistic, imaginative child. As for why he died, it’s reasonable that he or Kaladin didn’t have had any infused spheres on them in battle. It’s always been my impression that stormlight is necessary for healing, like when Teft kept giving Kaladin infused spheres after being strung up in a highstorm.
I see it as the opposite, that he takes too much responsibility for everything that happens. He thinks its his his fault that Tien died, or when anyone under his protection is wounded or dies. He felt it was his fault when they found writing on Dalinar’s walls in WOR, when Szeth broke in the palace, etc. I think his overly-inflated sense of responsibility and guilt for everything that happens is probably what prevented him from saying the fourth oath, and he’ll need to let go of it to progress as a radiant. He’s like the anti-Moash, one takes no responsibility, the other takes too much.
ETA: Regarding one of Hesina’s parents being lighteyed, do we know where they live, and if Kaladin has ever met them? I have a feeling that he has no idea he has a lighteyed grandparent. I hope we get to meet them someday.
I love those chapters: they are among my favorite. Among the anticipated story arcs for Oathbringer, Kaladin’s homecoming is one which did not disappoint me. I absolutely love how Brandon chose to tackle it. I recall how readers perspectives, after WoR, were often going from bad to worst: Kaladin’s parent would be dead or have moved out, Heartstone would be destroyed, Lirin broken down and/or a Radiant, same with Laral. Kaladin wouls shepherd the lost souls of Heartstone and lead them to safety to Kholinar. Either this or he would be imprisoned, once again, taken for a deserter, nobody believing his new status: predictions were going wild and a lot of them dealt with desperate outcomes.
How refreshing was it to find Lirin/Hesina thriving: sad for having lost their son, but able to move on. The new found peace in between Roshone and Lirin was also interesting to read. I love how Lirin’s dedication to his work made him go through his ordeal.
All in all, I just loved how Kaladin flew to Heartstone expecting the worst only to find the best.
I have also enjoyed how those few chapters further fleshed out the Lirin/Kaladin relationship which is exactly what the Dalinar/Adolin one isn’t. Lirin always wanted what was best for Kaladin, he was willing to steal to ensure this future for his son: he too is guilty of having projected his dreams and aspirations into his son, but unlike Dalinar, I never felt Lirin was being disrespectful of the man Kaladin was growing into. Lirin accepted Kaladin may not want this path even if it will soon be a struggle for him to realize Kaladin didn’t try to join the team of field surgeons while being in the army.
Thus, I have read Lirin as a father wanting the best for a son, trying to give him the best, struggling, making mistakes, but his “my little boy” spoke at length of the relationship he has with Kaladin. Lirin is a rare being within works of fantasy, a good father, imperfect, but well-intentioned. He loves his son and this love is not conditional.
@19: We will have ample time to discuss this within the future weeks, but the complete absence of Adolin’s viewpoints on his relationship with Shallan usually comes across as one element which prevented some readers from buying it. In other words, never getting what Adolin really thinks has made it hard for some readers to believe he really loves Shallan and he’s really in it for the right reasons. It does not sit well with others his supposedly have “issues” with relationships, but they suddenly disappear.
Hence, I don’t think the number of times Adolin mentions Kaladin is relevant, but I do wonder why Brandon never gave us his perspective on Shallan.
Gepeto @38. I got the impression that most of the time Adolin mentions Kaladin when Kaladin is not around is when Adolin is with Shallan. If Adolin is with Shallan (especially if the chapter is not an Adolin PoV) it stands to reason he will not think of Shallan. Rather, Adolin will just talk with Shallan.
For example, when Adolin and Shallan are leaving the meeting with Ialai, Adolin notes that Kaladin will not be pleased. Adolin does not need to think about Shallan since he is talking to her. This scenario also plays out when Adolin and Shallan leave the meeting when Amaram is named Highprince Sadeas. Adolin mentions that he and Kaladin were in jail because they believed Amaram was not the honorable man he projected to the public. There is no need to think about Shallan since Adolin is talking to Shallan face to face. When Shallan says that Amaram killed Helaran to get his Shardblade, Adolin turns to Shallan and uses her name.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
If I am wrong, then just ignore everything I said in this post.
#19 @@@@@ goddessimho
First I agree with you about Kaladin thinking of Adolin. :-) That scene made me smile.
As for Adolin thinking of or mentioning Kaladin more than his thoughts of Shallan, I hope that no one is thinking of an alternative vision. *laughs and smirks*
Seriously though, I believe there is bromance brewing between Adolin and Kaladin.
And this brings me to my dreamcast of Harry Styles being Adolin in the movie or series. I hope more for a series than a movie for the Stormlight archive, 2 hours is not enough for the material even if we are only talking of one book.
At 6 ft tall, Harry is tall enough, though of course the Alethi are described as very tall.
If the producers get Harry Styles as Adolin, they just won over half the girls in the 12-30 demographics. :-) And he can act too. Harry is more than just his One Direction days. His work at Dunkirk stands for itself.
Long journeys are pretty much my favorite thing to read. Really. Battles, politics, and cosmologies are what frequently bore me.
I generally avoid apocalypse-associated fiction (or nonfiction), so I don’t know know common it is to set a large span of a story in the middle of a relatively-slow apocalypse, but that’s something I especially like about Oathbringer. The Everstorm came and destroyed and will come again, Odium’s corruption is seeping everywhere, but the living live. Grass grows, lovers get married, families get reunited, people cook food and tend wounds, and a child still symbolises hope for the future. In the seriously soul-sustaining words of Lift, “The world ends tomorrow, but the day after that, people are going to ask what’s for breakfast.”
I generally find aquatic adaptation a more desirable superpower than flying, if given an imaginary choice. But somehow I feel there’s something especially cool about the way Windrunners and Surgebinders fly without wings or suchlike, moving through air like swimmers through water, though I know the mechanics are different.
I didn’t know they could fly so fast, though. How are they not harmed at all by the friction of the air? Probably an ignorant question, sorry.
Syl is delightful, especially her impulsive amphibian investigation.
“Being home brought out the child in him.” I also feel that way when visiting the house where I grew up and where my mom still lives.
I expect sows would be harder to milk than ungulants, being closer to the ground and probably less docile.
I hadn’t thought of “mink” being a blanket term like “chicken,” but it makes sense.
@41: I think when most grown ups return to their childhood home, up to a certain point at least, they somewhat revert to being a child. The parents revert to fussing over the child and the child in turn allows him/herself to be fussed over. Its comforting for a while.
Is this the chapter where Kaladin muses that he still hadn’t grown as many calluses as Lirin would have wanted? In TWoK Lirin tells Kaladin he needs to get over those he couldn’t save to be an effective surgeon, and he works on Roshone instead of Roshone’s son after the whitespine attack because he knows the son is beyond saving, while Roshone still has a chance. This advice is fascinating in light of Kaladin’s eventual inability to speak the oath while dredging up the memories of everyone he had failed. What if the Fourth Oath is derived from Lirin’s surgeon wisdom rather than Kaladin’s efforts to protect by killing, which Lirin looks down upon?
There’s some fascinating discussion here at the 17th Shard:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62363-ob-fourth-windrunner-ideal/
Also apologies if I’m broaching this subject 80 chapters and over a year and a half early!
@42: Yes, it’s a nicely relatable line.
@30, dashichka:
Hoid isn’t a Returned because he didn’t die and get an Endowed breath. He is an Awakener because he awakens. He is a Mistborn, because he has all forms of Allomancy. He is a Lightweaver because he weaves light (but not with Surges, as of the end of Oathbringer). He isn’t a Knight Radiant, because apparently you have to successfully Speak the Second Ideal of your order to attain that status and he hasn’t, yet. (He knows he has to speak Truths, he’s an enormously smart and knowledgeable person, and as he says he knows lots of Truths. He might speak all five by the next day.)
@37, Artemis:
I’ve written in other threads about Moash being the anti-Kaladin, Taravangian being the anti-Dalinar, etc. Brandon has confirmed that the Unmade are the anti-Heralds. It seems to be a theme of the Stormlight Archive.
@41, AeronaGreenjoy:
Earth parachutists can fall at terminal velocity, over 200 mph. They survive. They have to cover their eyes, basically. And they get cold.
Thanks Alice and Lyndsey for another great reread. I particularly love the “When” of the chapter recap; I always get the timeline confused or just flat out ignore it in the book, so this is incredibly helpful to me when I go back and try to sort everything out.
I agree that it is likely Renarin who thought he had fallen, since I am not sure who else would make sense. The one thing that seems a little strange is the reference to thinking he was dead. Did Renarin think he was dead or think he had become Odium’s champion (I thought his vision was seeing Dalinar become Odium’s champion, but I am not that far in my reread and may be confused)? In that case, “fallen” still works as in fallen to the enemy, but seems strange in the context of Dalinar thinking he was surely dead. Perhaps Dalinar thinks of serving Odium as being equivalent to death.
I have to agree with #22 that Tam al’Thor is a great father worthy of respect, but after thinking that immediately I remembered that he was Rand’s dad but not his biological father. His biological father was indeed dead. It just reminds me of the adage that any man can be a father, but only some men can be dads.
I also have to agree with Alice that after having kids myself, I really see this scene from Hesina’s perspective. It is cliche for a reason; the world really does seem to shift when you have children. I remember crying in the hospital room after the birth of my son just processing how overwhelmingly different the world seemed as a mother. Motherhood has changed the way I interact with history and current events and has made me so much more empathetic. Novels are so much more vibrant because of this, and this scene was a perfect example. I love how his parents treat him like a child. When my mom comes to stay at my house, she still tries to take over everything and I have 2 kids of my own now. It just seems to be natural parenting instinct and made this scene feel so real and so touching. One thing I somewhat disagree on is Kaladin’s thought about how the people of Hearthstone never treated his family with kindness. That is not how I remember his flashbacks. I know things were really rough after Roshone showed up, but I remember his parents explaining to him that they were still alive because of help from the other villagers. I also thought it was interesting how after the reunion with his parents went well, his thoughts of the town turned much more positive, so I think it was more a case of Kaladin being controlled by his depression, then mastering it again and realizing the truth.
I am 100% with you both on Moash. This was frustrating enough on the first read since Moash brought out the worst in Kaladin, but is so much more painful on re-read.
I feel like spren are drawn to the emotion, because I vaguely remember Syl advising someone not to feel certain emotions in Shadesmar to avoid drawing dangerous spren, but once again I may be confused here. I am more like Lyndsey than like Alice in the memory department!
Regarding the flora and fauna – the description of the “fertile” landscape really stood out to me since every description of literally anywhere on Roshar (except maybe Shinovar) sounds like the opposite of fertile to me (granted, I am from Virginia and now live in North Carolina, so I am used to VERY fertile landscapes). This made me think about how odd Roshar is in general, likely due to the refugee status of humans. There are chulls and axehounds and all these bug/crab type creatures, but also pigs and horses. It is just so strange. Also, I have to say that I love how Shallan’s sketches are integrated into these books, because until I saw the axehound one, I was picturing the axehounds as redbone coonhounds despite the text descriptions. I am a coonhound lover and when I hear hound, I am thinking coonhound!
These chapters had some great comedy – the poor soldier, Kaladin thinking that he is “unarmed save for Syl”. They also had some startling language; I agree that the comparison of the Everstorm to the baby born with no face really drove home to me the fact that this storm is alien to this world. They accept Highstorms and their rock soil and everything that seems alien to me as a reader, but in their world this storm is more strange than their whole world is to me. It was powerful for me and really helped bring me “in-world”.
Did anyone else think Kaladin’s feeling of an echoing hollowness when he ran out of Stormlight sounded vaguely like Teft’s feeling without firemoss later on? I wonder if addicts take to using Stormlight more quickly. A fair percentage or our Radiants so far are addicts (Teft and Dalinar come to mind, and we don’t have many Radiants yet).
Also, I know Laral shows up soon and is in control and seems content with her situation, but this description of Roshone just made me think, “poor Laral!” I am sorry for the insanely long post; these chapters made me think a lot!
A few smatterings:
1)Not only is it amusing that Kaladin thinks of Adolin, but to me it’s even more amusing that he even recognizes that the outfit is out of fashion.
2)I think I also lifted an eyebrow at Kaladin punching Roshone over Moash instead of over Tien, but perhaps he’s just too personally involved with Tien, and facing his anger over that also involves facing his own guilt. So it’s easier to just say it’s ‘for Moash’.
3)I just finished the prose version of White Sand, and I’m definitely a bit intrigued at the annotation and wondering what Khriss is up to and how she got up to it.
Keep the chronology in mind–from Kaladin’s POV, he fought off Moash like yesterday, not “in a whole different book.”
@40 sheiglagh
Lol actually (as I think was mentioned by another poster) on the 17th shard someone has posted a rather in depth analysis as to why they feel it could be read that there is something deeper going on relationship wise between Kaladin and Adolin (Kadolin ship). I will stress however, the person made it very clear that they realize it is highly unlikely for a whole list of reasons they admit in their post, but they merely meant the post to discuss their own fan fiction interpretation and I found their reading of it very interesting :)
edit: link for reference http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/66686-ob-the-case-for-kadolin/
@41 AeronaGreenjoy
Regarding them flying so fast but not being hurt. Totally not an ignorant question but it does come up in the book. There is a part in the book where while flying great speeds Kaladin suddenly changes his direction dramatically and results in him nearly blacking out, and losing his vision. He was even concerned that stormlight wouldn’t be enough to heal him from the dramatic effect of the force on his body (I think it is centripetal force, but I could be wrong). Also when flying to Kholinar, some of the people needed masks to deal with the wind since they couldn’t use stormlight.
@44 Carl
Regarding Hoid being a mistborn, all signs do point to yes but Brandon has been oddly dodgy about that question. I wouldn’t normally lend that any credence, but Brandon also was that level of dodgy concerning Renarin’s spren so…….Also we have only seen him use soothing so we do not conclusively know that he is a full mistborn. Again all signs do point to it, but Brandon for some reason keeps avoiding confirming that he is in fact an allomancer and has used the lerasium bead.
It is interesting to see the dichotomy between characters and how their choices have shaped them and taken them on different paths. How both Dalinar and Taravangian can seek to, in their opinion, unite but take two drastically different approaches to it.
Here is a question regarding gravity I hope you can answer. By increasing gravitation pull can a person exceed the original terminal velocity? Or does that not effect it? I think terminal velocity is effected by the gravitation pull, but I am having trouble recalling my science classes lol
@45 Evelina
Renarin did see Dalinar become Odium’s champion. I believe Renarin said something to the effect that Dalinar was no more, so could have meant it as a metaphorical death like you said.
I think it was Syl advising Kaladin because he kept on attracting spren after what he went through at Kholinar.
I believe there is a WoB that stated his inspiration for the ecology of Roshar were tidal pools. After doing a little research it gave me a much deeper understanding of Roshar, and made the flora and fauna that much more vibrant
That is a great point about the Everstorm being so alien compared to how we see their world as alien. That really makes me think
That is something interesting I have noted about Brandon’s magic systems. They are all “abusable” and could just as easily become a drug addiction as any intoxicant. Savants of every magic system are an example of that. That does open up a lot of scary thoughts for poor Teft and even Dalinar. Replacing one addiction with another
@46 Re: your #1. I remember thinking when I read it that it’s so cute that Adolin is rubbing off on Kaladin. Imo, noticing things that would be an interest to your partner but not usually to you is a sign of a healthy relationship. Old Kal would’ve never noticed what someone was wearing, let alone if it were out of fashion or not. I do think that the Kadolin bromance is stronger than either of their relationships with Shallan (sorry Shallan).
@58: Thanks. I had forgotten about that.
@48 If I remember correctly terminal velocity is essentially the point where wind resistance/drag overcomes a persons weight (mass * gravity). So if a windrunner can increase the effect of gravity then it should increase their terminal velocity. Though I don’t believe it is linear because I remember changing mass doesn’t change terminal velocity too much when it comes to humans in regards to skydiving.
@51 Stormy
Thanks for the info! Magitech on Roshar will get pretty insane. Imagine a bullet train using abrasion for no friction, and gravitation for movement………
@48 Scath – Brandon has confirmed that Hoid is an Allomancer. But you’re right—he’s very dodgy about whether he burned the lerasium bead. He keeps saying, “Well, he’s an Allomancer…” It makes me think that Hoid obtained allomancy is another way (hemalurgy?) but did something else with the bead.
@53 Austin
Ah I must have been remembering incorrectly then. It was probably him being so dodgy about whether or not he used the lerasium bead that made me think that. I am pretty sure I did see a WoB that said Hoid has not used hemalurgy because he does not want to risk being influenced by any shard. I am going to do some digging.
@54 – There’s quite a few WoBs on it, but here’s one where he confirms it: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128-supanova-2017-sydney/#e5728
So in chronological order:
Salt Lake City signing March 29, 2014
Questioner
Is Wit, or Hoid– Is he an Allomancer
Brandon Sanderson
He did steal a bead of lerasium off of Scadrial. If he were to make use of that bead, certain powers could have been gained.
Questioner
Okay. “If he were to have used it.”
Brandon Sanderson
If he were to have used it.
Salt Lake City signing March 29 2014
Questioner
First of all, Lord Ruler had his Lerasium beads. Did he use them for feruchemy?
Brandon Sanderson
The Lord Ruler, that’s an excellent question, I’m not answer that one.
Questioner
Will you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?
Brandon Sanderson
His bead, he originally got it because he wanted to become an Allomancer.
Minicon 2015 April 2 2015
Ruro272 (paraphrased)
Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
It’s… unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he’d more likely do things the hard way.
Shadows of Self release party October 5 2015
Questioner
Is Hoid an Allomancer now?
Brandon Sanderson
That has been strongly implied.
Calamity Austin signing February 25 2016
Questioner
Can you share any abilities that Hoid has accrued so far in the books, does he– with him taking the bead, I can’t even pronounce the L-word…
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, lerasium, he is indeed an Allomancer. So. That has happened. I haven’t confirmed much else, but he does have that.
Krakow signing March 21 2017
Questioner
Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself allomantic powers?
Brandon Sanderson
His goal was to become an Allomancer.
Questioner
And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?
Brandon Sanderson
It could not give powers other than allomancy.
Questioner
Because it’s lerasium?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Oversleep
So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?
Brandon Sanderson
You have seen him use Allomancy…
Oversleep
Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.
Brandon Sanderson
You have actually seen him use Allomancy.
edit: lol ninjaed. Still makes me wonder why he was dancing so much around the involvement of lerasium and whether or not Hoid took it
Great chapter! I don’t think Kaladin punching Roshone and sitting doing nothing while Lirin defended him was really out of character. We’ve seen again and again that Kaladin tends to lapse back into who he’s been before when he’s overwhelmed. He may not be beaten down right now but he definitely has a lot to process.
Punching Roshone seems like the soldier/slave who tore up the map without thinking through the consequences and sitting, thinking while Lirin takes care of things seems like the boy Kaladin.
The HUGE BREAKTHROUGH in both of these situations is Kaladin remembering that is not who he is now and he doesn’t have to revert back to the men he was. He makes a conscious choice to be a Knight Radiant and lead
@48, scath:
[puts on old physics teacher hat] Terminal velocity is determined by two things: the attraction of gravity on the object (directly proportional to its mass) and the air resistance. In the absence of air, there is no terminal velocity and falling objects just accelerate indefinitely (until they hit something).
@51, Stormy:
Terminal velocity is where air resistance equals gravitational force, to be very specific. Increasing mass would and does increase terminal velocity as long as air resistance stays the same. For instance, if a skydiver wears a lead weight belt:
1. He/she is an idiot–who wears a weight belt while skydiving?
2. Their terminal velocity would increase, since the attraction of gravity would be higher and their air resistance would barely change, if at all.
Increasing something’s size and thus mass might not affect terminal velocity much, because it would increase both air resistance and gravitational attraction.
(Sticklers: I am ignoring General Relativity here. And so should you. Also, I know all about the square-cube law of Galileo but I’m leaving it out to keep down the length of this already-long message.)
I suspect that an advantage of the sealed helmets of Shardplate is that they let the wearer fly at super-high velocity without losing vision. (Skydivers have to wear goggles to avoid literally having their eyes freeze.) Also based on Kaladin’s example, Fourth Oath (or maybe Fifth) Windrunners might be able to command Windspren to redirect the air around them and their “passengers” to minimize air resistance.
Carl @58 – Nice! I just have one question: Given that Kaladin can pile on as many lashings as he has Stormlight to support, at what point does atmospheric resistance become irrelevant? :D
@several re: Hoid – I notice that in all the answers, Brandon never comes out and says that Hoid did use the lerasium bead. Nor does he ever say that Hoid has all the Allomantic powers. He says that the point of stealing the lerasium bead was to gain Allomancy, and that we’ve seen Hoid use Allomancy. Given the very careful dancing around, I’m guessing that Hoid has not used the bead (though he may have given or lost it to someone else), and that he gained at least one Allomantic power in some other way. Just guessing at that, but those WoBs look like he’s working very hard to avoid acknowledging outright that Hoid used the bead.
These are among my favorite chapters in Book 1, and they’re pretty much an emotional rollercoaster. There’s worry, relief, elation, sadness, and even amusement! One thing I particularly liked was how Laral seems to have taken over Hearthstone. I always felt very sympathetic to her in WoK, but I’m pretty sure I was in the minority. People seemed to dislike her, even though her two worst moments–mocking the village boys and encouraging Kal to fight them, and then the confrontation between Rillir and Kaladin–occured when she was a teenager who was a) sent away from the house while her father was dying, b) trying to defuse a tense situation between her actual fiance and the kid she might once have married, whose fathers are currently enemies. So it’s nice to come back and see that she’s gone from a cowed adolescent to practically running the place.
I really hope that by the time book 4 starts, Kaladin’s family are either in or en route to Urithiru. It looks like it might actually be easier for them to go to Jah Khavad and the gate there than the Shattered Plains! Hesina’s family is turning out to be quite the mystery; I remember that in the prologue comments Isilel suggested that she might be from Karbranth, which made me wonder if she and her family are covered under Odium’s deal with Mr. T. And now she may have a lighteyed parent? Iiiinteresting. . .
@10 Isilel: I think that there might actually be goats in Tashikk! Or maybe deer. When Lift is running away from Azir / towards Yeddaw, she mentions hairy, hoofed animals that live around there. I can’t remember the exact description, but Lift thinks they are less appatizing than roofing tiles.
About the quality of Roshone’s guards: It’s probable they’re all from the retainers he brought with him when he arrived, since he had a literal train of attendants. And if Amaram’s army funnels good soldiers to the ShattereRd Plains, and common soldiers advance to a nahn were they have the right of free travel, it’s possible that hardly any of them would want to come home when they could get better jobs as soldiers in larger towns or a highprince’s guard, and send that money home instead. I don’t get the impression that working for Roshone is a very profitable or prestigious position. Of course, by this point all the ones who left with Kaladin could be dead.
@48 Scath
Thanks for the link. As you said, it is interesting reading. :-)
As the author of the thread and those who responded said, the Kadolin ship is very unlikely to happen. And yet a little part of me cannot help but think that there is a little bit of yaoi here. LOL
Whether its by accident or by design, Adolin and Kaladin really do think of each other a lot. I don’t want to discuss the whole yaoi thing here. Wrong forum. LOL And I’m not a member of the 17th Shard. Anyway, if you want to discuss this, please message me. :-)
RE: punching Roshone
Kaladin doesn’t seem to look at things as a sequence of events. Instead, he blames specific people for specific things they have done. He blamed the officer who put Tien in the line of fire. He blamed Amaram for killing his spearmen and branding him a slave. He blames Roshone for imprisoning Moash’s grandparents. So, punching Roshone for Moash and not himself makes sense.
RE: Hoid
I remember speculation that the “element” that is mentioned in the Way of Kings Part 2 epigraph letter was the bead of Lerasium that Hoid had taken. If that is the case, he didn’t burn it, but instead could have used it as a blueprint for how to give himself alomancy.
https://www.tor.com/2013/08/15/the-way-of-kings-reread-epigraphs-to-part-two/
RE: Chapter 6 threshold
Am I incorrect in thinking this is the first time in the Stormlight Archive that the Herald icons are not symmetrical/that there are more than two? While the explanation given for why these icons are included make sense, it is still strange to me that Brandon chose to alter his way of doing them in this book.
While I like to play around with the idea of Kalolin, l believe the real point is these two men from wildly different sub cultures of Alethi life have begun to have a deep friendship. Kaladin may not have needed this since he had Bridge 4 but Adolin certainly had no one in his life that was a buddy. It also furthers Kaladin’s realization that not all lighteyes are bad.
I can’t come up with much of a reason that Hessina having a lighteyes parent makes a difference in the story lines. I suppose it is one more reason for Kaladin to reassess his views but he is going that way already.
As for parents; you are always your mother’s baby.
Roger @62 – It’s not the first time we’ve seen more than two Heralds in the title arch… it’s the second. :D The first one was on Chapter 89 of Words of Radiance, “The Four,” and it shows the four Heralds associated with the four Orders identified with Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Renarin at that point. It doesn’t happen often! Usually it’s one in all four spots, or two mirror-imaged.
Also, I love the idea that Hoid may have used the lerasium bead as a blueprint rather than actually ingesting it. That sounds like a very Hoid thing to do.
Maybe Hoid used the bead to make alloys with every type of metal combinations? Lerasium and a metal makes you a misting of that power. Maybe there’s a benefit to alloys rather than just burning it and becoming Mistborn.
A long time ago in the annotations, Brandon said becoming a Mistborn is the side effect of burning lerasium, not the intended effect. Has the intended effect ever been revealed?
Carl @58: Just to double check: your reference to the square-cube law is that wind resistance is proportional to (cross-sectional) area while mass is proportional to volume, correct? (I was initially confused as to how you were ignoring that, but I think I figured it out.)
And one other little detail (which I’m sure you know): technically, for a mass with nonzero volume, there is a maximum velocity even with no wind resistance: the escape velocity. (Due to the inverse square law, gravitational attraction decreases with distance, so acceleration does as well. Thus, there is a finite velocity such that if you throw a rock up at that velocity, it will never return to the ground. It turns out that falling objects can never reach that velocity if they start from rest.)
@66, bad_platypus:
Well, except for the other part. You’re right that cross section increases as the square while gravitational attraction increases as the volume, or the cube, but … air resistance is more complicated than that, and won’t increase in a linear way when cross section does. It will do so approximately, in some domains.
Note that I wrote that in the absence of air, objects acclerate [by falling] indefinitely. This is true. The escape velocity is equal to the velocity that would in theory be reached by an object falling from an infinite distance to the surface of the body in question. It would accelerate the entire way. Thus there would be no terminal velocity, which is defined as a constant velocity reached by a falling object (with respect to the gravity well).
If you launched a Falcon Heavy payload away from Earth at double escape velocity, it would be falling (upward) forever (with respect to Earth, it would not escape the Solar System). And its velocity would be continuously accelerated “downward” (toward Earth) by Earth’s gravity. Gravity has no max range–no matter how far that object got from Earth, its velocity away from Earth would always be decreasing (in the absence of other forces).
You should have realized that I would lecture–I never took off this physics teacher hat. It’s kind of comfortable. Want to do some math?
Am I the only one to think that when Syl is talking about hunting gloomspren combined with them being rare that means they are somehow related to odium? Syl’s aunt would have to be a conscious spren bonded to a radiant of some sort right? I am probably way off as others are usually much better at theories here than I am..
@64 – So, will he actually be bonding with the cryptic spren or using it in a similar fashion?
Carl @58:
But Shardplate’s eye-slit is open to the elements, so it can’t work as goggles, on the contrary, it is the one completely unprotected spot. Admittedly, Radiants might be able to change this, if they so choose.
Sisteroftherain @60
I had lots of sympathy for Laral in WoK and I consider Lirin and Hesina’s plans to arrange a marriage between her and Kal to be frankly unsavory and disturbing. I mean, they were childhood friends, but largely due to circumstances that had thrown them together and isolated them from everybody else of the same age in Heartstone. It is not like the kids were in love or anything. And as business propositions go, _all_ the gains would have accrued to Kaladin, while Laral would have lost massively in status and also brought all the wealth into such a marriage. And then, when this fell through, Lirin and Hesina just stole from her – yes, those 100 diamond broams were part of her inheritance and probably a significant one. So, umm…
And I do like how Laral has come into her own – in fact, I hoped that Kaladin would return once more to Heartstone towards the end of OB and we’d see her truly blossoming into a leader that people need during a Desolation.
OTOH, how she views what was done to Tien, even with hindsight, is repulsive. I understand her not standing up for him back when she was an adolescent girl betrothed to Roshone and in his power, but that she seems to defend it even now… But that’s a discussion for the next Kaladin chapter.
Hesina’s family mystery – yes, on my recent re-read that’s one of the few obvious set-ups from WoK that didn’t have a pay-off yet. I really wonder how it is going to play – I was briefly excited by my idea that she might be a Kharabrantian, but that wouldn’t put either Kal or little Oroden within the scope of Mr. T’s bargain. Also, her family was apparently sending supplies to them during their feud with Roshone, and Karabranth is just too far away for it to be practical. So, now I dunno.
I can only hope that nothing else tragic happens to Kal’s family due to Lirin’s stubborness or the fact that Kal was unable to return to his hometown “soon”, as he had promised.
Wow, you are right about goats in western Roshar! Granted, the one seen in Edgedancer was used instead of a donkey to haul a cart, but still. I do wonder why they don’t have them in the east and why they aren’t used for dairy products instead of pigs – Lift only mentioned their meat, the taste of which she didn’t like. After all, iRL it was the other way around for a reason.
Dwcole@68:
An interesting idea, although they don’t seem that different from the other non-sapient emotion-spren, do they? As to Syl’s aunt – Syl is the only honorspren that was bonded to a Radiant pre-Recreance and is not a deadeye. She is simultaneously the oldest among them and one of the younger ones, because she first bonded before she was ready for it and her knight’s death put her in a coma-like slumber for millenia, which normally doesn’t happen when a Radiant dies. The aunt must be one of the 10 honorspren who had been created by the Stormfather after the Recreance – and, in turn, formed all the other currently living honorspren from the bits of investiture becoming conscious.
Wetlandernw @59:
Mistborn Spoilers:
Speaking of Hoid, he also needed to have exceptionally strong Iron and Steel Allomancy and possibly also Duralumin to get out of the place where he found his lerasium bead, so if he is a Misting, he is one of multiple metals. Why anybody would want to do this instead of just becoming a Mistborn is a puzzle to me, though. OTOH, I also think that given that Feruchemy is equally of Ruin and Preservation, then burning a 50-50 atium-lerasium alloy would grant it. So, maybe that’s what Hoid did and then perhaps the remaining lerasium wasn’t enough to make him a Mistborn too, so he made and burned alloys with a few other Allomantic metals to at least become a strong Misting in them? I am not sure. My gut tells me that half a lerasium bead would still make one a Mistborn, if a weak one, and with Feruchemy it wouldn’t even matter. And that even just Mistborn abilities would be incredibly useful to somebody like Hoid, leave alone a Fullborn power-set.
BTW, could it be that Hoid had also swiped a certain character’s flute on his way out and that it was the one that he lent to Kaladin, who then forgot it in Sadeas’s camp? My suspicion is that said instrument will be found again among Amaram’s effects, but I am not sure of it’s significance. Could it be just a gag?
Just a thought regarding Isilel @10’s quote from ECCC:
“Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Are both of Kaladin’s maternal grandparents darkeyes?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No. Good question. I think you’re the first one to pull that out of me.”
I noticed that it doesn’t specifically say that one of the grandparents was a lighteyes. It’s possible that one (or both) of them could be mixes (one eye light and one eye dark).
This week’s re-read was so good. I can hardly wait until next weeks’ too!
@58 Carl
This leads to another question I have. Sorry that this is off topic. For a Mistborn doing a steel push or iron pull, they would be able to change their direction faster and with greater speed (assuming metal is present) than a Windrunner because regardless of how many lashes a Windrunner may use, it is still gravity that is acting on them, so they would still need to accelerate over a degree of distance (hopefully I phrased that correctly). Is this accurate or am I misunderstanding an aspect of the gravitational pull?
@59 Wetlandernw
I agree regarding Hoid. Originally I would have thought he was just being deliberately obtuse to keep discussion going, but he acted the same way with Renarin and Glys, causing everyone to be frustrated and confused when he showed all signs of just being a Truthwatcher. Turns out all those dodges was something after all. So really makes me wonder what these dodges with lerasium are hiding.
61@sheiglagh
No problem. I just found it interesting that a deeper relationship could be read from that, which causes me to think Brandon writing an LGBTQ character or couple among main characters more possible and Brandon should give himself more credit in his capabilities to write one.
@65 Austin
To the best of my knowledge I do not believe it has ever been revealed what the main effect/purpose of lerasium is. All we seem to know at this point is the side effects of either making you a mistborn, making an existing mistborn stronger, or if you burn enough resulting in you ascending.
@68 dwcole
The impression I got (I could be wrong), is that sapient spren are already sapient in the cognitive realm regardless whether they have a radiant bond or not. Where sapience comes into play due to the bond, is the spren being sapient in the physical realm. So Syl’s aunt could have been bonded to a radiant at some point, or could have never been bonded.
@70 Isilel
I agree with you and Sisteroftherain about giving Laral more credit than she gets, but I disagree that her and Kaladin getting married was purely on Wistlow and Kaladin’s parents. Lirin felt that if Kaladin became a surgeon and with Wistlow’s approval, the kids could get married. He hoped, but it was not a sure thing. If Laral didn’t on some level desire the marriage, then I couldn’t see her actively trying to convince Kaladin to join the military to win a shardblade which would immediately make him a lighteyes capable of marriage with her. It was winning the shardblade portion that she actively encouraged. So I do feel there was a definite interest on Laral’s part at least for wanting to end up married with Kaladin. She just figured the more likely path was via a shardblade rather than a surgeon’s blade.
Mistborn and Secret History Spoilers
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Regarding Hoid, he wouldn’t need steel and iron to access the Well. The Well itself is a perpendicularity that he could travel through from the cognitive realm. We see him do exactly that in Secret History. So he wouldn’t need steel nor iron to move the block because he wouldn’t need to get past the block at all. Resonances only happen when you have a few powers to focus on. Mistborn, Feruchemists, and Fullborn do not get them. Perhaps Hoid wanted only two or three allomanic powers to develop a particularly useful resonance for his goals. Then again, would the powers he had from other magic systems prevent the resonance from forming? Hmmmm.
Regarding the flute, this is on recollection, so I could be wrong but I believe it was Hoids flute to begin with, and after Kaladin lost it, it was seen by Shallan among Amaram’s flutes. But I cannot recall if that was from a WoB or was someone’s theory.
@72, scath:
What Windrunners do is not really gravity, they just call it that. Remember, per Brandon what we read is translated from the Rosharian–I doubt they’ve quite got Newtonian, let alone Einsteinian, gravity worked out. It looks from the narrative as if a Windrunner can use multiple lashings to go faster.
Ashspreen? Apologies if this has been considered already, but I wonder if they could end up getting transported and stuck on Scadrial…
@73 Carl
I may not have explained myself well. A mistborn and a windrunner stand on a cliff. The mistborn has a steel pillar secured to the ground directly behind him/her. 100 feet out in front of the mistborn, and then 100 feet to the right is another steel pillar.
At the word go, the windrunner uses as many lashes to cause them to fall straight ahead with the same amount of force that the mistborn uses to push off the steel pillar directly behind him or her. The mistborn reaches 100 feet in front of him or her before the windrunner, because although the gravitational force is equal to the mistborn’s push, the windrunner still needs to accelerate to the speed due to the gravitational pull of the lashes, while the mistborn is directly applying the force.
Once the mistborn reaches the 100 ft marker, the mistborn pulls on the second pillar, yanking him or her to the right. The windrunner once he or she reaches the 100 ft marker, dispels all lashes drawing them forward, and immediately directs all the same number of lashes directly to the left. The windrunner’s momentum is lost with the sudden change of direction, and must accelerate once more to speed. The mistborn directly yanking on the second pillar allows it to reach the pillar faster. The mistborn then wins this short race of changing directions suddenly.
The mistborn does rely on the metal being in the right place at the right time, and over a longer straight stretch the windrunner will beat them, but the mistborn can change direction and speed faster and more efficiently. (for the purpose of this exercise, let us have the momentum of both the push and the lashes end at the 100ft mark, so the change of direction is a sharp right angle, rather than a curve swinging around the target goal.)
So the reason I state all of the above, is basically me asking, is this logic, based on the example given accurate due to the way gravity acts on an object regardless the strength of the pull? Or is there a fundamental aspect about how gravity acts on an object that I am not getting right (such as since the gravitational force is equal to the mistborn’s push/pull, then both should act exactly the same), so the example is false? Did I clarify my question better?
@carl 67 – “You should have realized that I would lecture–I never took off this physics teacher hat. It’s kind of comfortable. Want to do some math?”
Should we start calling you Mathblood? “Hello, would you like to slay some equations today?”
@75, scath:
There is a false assumption underlying your reasoning.
Force is force. BWS has been very clear that a Coinshot is flying by applying a force to his/her body, pushing against metal objects and feeling the Newtonian “equal and opposite” force on himself. Similarly, in Newtonian gravity, gravitational force is just a force. If the two forces are the same, they will both produce the same acceleration on the same mass.
You seem to be thinking that coinshots just suddenly jump to speed without needing to accelerate. That’s directly contradicting Brandon Sanderson ….
@77 Carl,
Great, thanks for clearing that up for me!
I’m not a physicist but I would think that your example is false. Gravity is a force just like pushing steel. Both would go through an acceleration dependent on the amount of force. What may be confusing is that we are used to an unchanging gravity here on earth. But when someone use multiple lashing it is effectively multiplying the force of “gravity” thus increasing the force and the acceleration as well. Thus if the force applied is the same, so will be the acceleration.
Edited to add that I forgot to refresh and that Carl beat me to it.
Carl @67: No, that’s OK. I can handle the math. :-) (Although I did make a false start by trying to solve the differential equation of the motion directly; it seems that there’s not a closed-form solution. It took me a while to hit on the conservation of energy approach.)
Something it may be important to note is that the Mistborn is still being pushed downwards by the gravity of the planet no matter what direction they are pushing or pulling. The act of “flying” for them therefore involves countering planetary forces. A Windrunner isn’t fighting gravity when they fly. They redirect it so that it works for them. Therefore a Mistborn may have an advantage in change of direction speed assuming that there is enough metal around but their range is going to suck. In a straight sprint the Windrunner wins cuz as long as the Stormlight holds up they can fall forever without having their momentum constantly being broken up by the need to counter gravity.
@81, to agree with EvilMonkey, Brandon has said that a Windrunner could fly in space, something impossible for a Coinshot (because they’d have nothing to push off of–even if they dropped some metal, it would quickly be pushed out of range).
Also note that a Windrunner could survive in space (again per Brandon) because as long as they have Stormlight they don’t need to breathe (and could presumably survive vacuum). I suppose a Mistborn who was also a gold Feruchemist could burn invested gold and constantly heal herself to survive in space.
Re: Hoid and lerasium.
Given that making one a mistborn isn’t the “main effect” of lerasium, my theory is that he burned it as an alloy with each metal to have the become effectively a mistborn, without the main effect, because the main effect is something nasty that he wants to avoid.
Scath @72:
My impression was that Laral was just more aware of schemes concerning her prospective marriage to Kaladin when she spoke to him. Besides, she was at most 13 Rosharan-style, so 14 or so Earth-style when conversation about her wanting Kaladin to gain shards and become a lighteyes happened. To me it indicated that she was opposed to marrying a darkeyes, but knew that her getting hitched to Kaladin was if not a done deal, then very likely. To say that Laral “desired” that marriage is IMHO a big exaggeration, particularly since she never had an opportunity to socialize with other males of her age until then.
I find these quotes from Lirin pretty damning concerning his intent to arrange Kaladin’s eventual marriage to Laral:
“I knew that, with his death, we would lose the promise of a union.”… “I made certain that promises were kept“ from WoK chapter 37 “Sides”.
There is a clear suggestion that Wistiow promised Laral’s hand for Kaladin to Lirin and that her dowry was supposed to pay for Kal’s education. We know that 100 diamond broams were a non-trivial sum for her – it will be made even more clear in Kal’s upcoming chapter, and they came from her inheritance.
As to Syl’s Aunt – she was never bonded to a Radiant in the past. Notum explained this to Our Heroes – all the honorspren who had ever been bonded became deadeyes during the Recreance. With the sole exception of Syl, who was in a coma-like slumber after the death of her Radiant and missed the festivities.
As to spren sapience in the physical realm – true for Nahel spren, though some of the Odium-spren, like Ulim and Ixli, don’t need bonds to be sapient.
Mistborn and Secret History Spoilers:
Hm, I tried to white it out, but message wouldn’t post? Whited out successfully after a few hiccups:
You forget that Hoid remained in the physical realm on Scadrial after getting the bead, so yes, he absolutely needed to move that stone block with Allomancy in order to get out of the cache and subsequently travel to Fadrex. For which Steel, Iron and Duralumin abilities are required. Hoid may have many powers, but he still needs Shard perpendicularities to cross between realms. That’s the whole reason why he had to enter through the Well, despite it being very difficult according to himself and exceptionally dangerous according to Leras.
Resonance idea is interesting – I wonder if having more than 2 powers, but less than full Mistborn complement would allow for it. Still, being a Mistborn is so powerful and versatile that I don’t see why he would purposefully chose not to become one, unless he had to use most of the lerasium bead for something else. It has also occured to me that an off-worlder would need more lerasium to become an Allomancer than a Scadrian, since the latter are more than half of Preservation, while the former would be only 1/16 of it. So, maybe a Scadrian could still become a weak Mistborn using only half a bead, but Hoid couldn’t.
So, you think that it is a pure coincidence that when we got a glimpse of TLR’s den, one of the items there was a flute? Though, admittedly, it could have been Hoid’s flute to begin with – maybe he makes a habit of lending it to people who are likely to become important on their worlds.
End Spoilers.
@83 – That is…a good theory!
@81 EvilMonkey and @82 Carl
Thank you both for the information. Just to clarify, the example I gave was not to say one is better than the other. The reason for the example is because I wondered if I was misunderstanding some aspects of gravity (which as you all above explained, I was). So it was a question with the goal of furthering my own education regarding gravity and how it operates in terms of windrunner’s lashes. If I also recall per that WoB or another, the other reason the windrunner could survive in space is they could use adhension to create their own air pocket, like Kaladin did later in Oathbringer with the wind spren.
@83 E S Lavall
Makes sense. Could be that the main effect connects him too much to Preservation for Hoid’s liking. We see he already avoids hemalurgy for this reason alone.
@84 Isilel
So I have a bunch of quotes. I am going to try and not make this overly long because I have a lot to reply to lol. (the italics are Brandon’s use of emphasis. I will add bold myself to focus on certain parts)
“He wants to send me to Kharbranth” Kaladin said perched atop his rock “To train to become a surgeon”
“What really?” Laral asked,
“Yes really” Kal said with a grunt. “He’s been talking about it for a couple of years now.”
“And you didn’t tell me?”
(at this point it describes the area. in the interest of trying to keep concise, I skipped to the next dialogue line)
“Kal?” Laral said, voice insistent. “Why didn’t you tell me?”
“Sorry” he said “I wasn’t sure if Father was serious or not. So I didn’t say anything”
She placed her hands on her hips. “I thought you were going to go become a soldier.”
Kal shrugged
She rolled her eyes, hopping down off her ridge onto a stone beside him “Don’t you want to become a lighteyes? Win a Shardblade?”
“Father says that doesn’t happen very often”
She knelt down before him “I’m sure you could do it.”
So at this point in the scene, I interpret that Kaladin wants to become a soldier because as he says himself a little bit later, because “he wants to change things”. For Kaladin, the shardblade isn’t the goal. This is later supported in the scene when he fights Jost, as when asked how darkeyes can become lighteyes, his first thought is marrying a lighteyes and the child possibly being lighteyes. It is Jost that replies again about the shardblade. Also in this scene I interpret that based on Laral’s surprise, she had no idea about Kaladin being prepared to be sent to Kharbrant to become a surgeon. This appears to me to mean that if she didn’t know about that, then she wouldn’t know the plan to marry them once he finishes his training in Kharbranth to become a surgeon.
“I suppose” Laral said with a sigh. She held out a hand towards him
“What’s that for?” Kal asked, looking at her hand
“To help me down”
“Laral, you’re a better climber than me or Tien. You don’t need help.”
“It’s polite, stupid” she said, proffering her hand more insistently. Kal sighed and took it, then she proceeded to hop down without even leaning on it or needing his help. She, he thought, has been acting very strange lately.
I take this scene to say they have begun teaching her to “act like a high lady”. It is also stated that Laral is one year away from getting her safehand covered and reaching adolescence. So to me, this is the time for Laral to start thinking of her future, and who she wants to spend that future with.
“So” Laral said, folding her arms “What are you going to do? If your father tries to send you to Kharbranth?”
“I don’t know” Kal said “The surgeons won’t take anyone before their sixteenth Weeping, so I’ve got time to think” The best surgeons and healers trained in Kharbranth. Everyone knew that. The city was said to have more hospitals than taverns
“It sounds like your father is forcing you to do what he wants, not what you want” Laral said
(at this point Kal says isn’t that how it goes? A farmer’s son becomes a farmer. A surgeon’s son becomes a surgeon)
“I just-” Laral looked angry. “Kal, if you go to war and find a Shardblade, then you’d be a lighteyes…I mean… Oh, this is useless.” She settled back, folding her arms even more tightly.
Kal scratched his head. She really was acting oddly. “I wouldn’t mind going to war, winning honor and all that. Mostly, I’d like to travel. See what other lands are like.”
Laral was looking towards the mansion again. She smoothed her dress nervously – lately she took far more care, not getting her clothes dirty as she once had.
So in these scenes I interpret that she is trying to push Kaladin away from becoming a surgeon and push him more towards becoming a soldier. Her reason being to get a shardblade so he can become a lighteyes. Kaladin is oblivious to this, so is purely trying to decide whether he wants to follow in his father’s footsteps, or go on an adventure. This frustrates her because she is concerned that he doesn’t like her back, or that even if he does go, he won’t win a shardblade, so won’t be able to marry her. Her looking to the mansion is her reminding herself of her growing responsibilities as a blossoming high lady. That is why I feel she goads Jost into a fight with Kaladin. To try and knock some sense into him.
Now the way I presented this could paint Laral in a negative light. I personally see it in a positive light and feel we are seeing a young girl, who has feelings/crush for Kaladin, being thrust into the uncertain world of maturity. A world that could be very much out of her control (as we see with how Shallan was viewed/treated growing up). So clinging to a legend (albeit foolishly), she hoped she could marry the man she cared for, instead of some arranged marriage with an old high lord she had never met. Unfortunately with the death of her father, she had a lot of growing up to do and fast. She didn’t fall to pieces. She didn’t wait by the window every night waiting for Kaladin. She realized her situation, made her decisions, and dealt with the hand she was given. I think that shows a lot of inner strength for her. Even when Kaladin returned literally fulfilling the legend she had clung to as a child, she still stood on her own. I don’t agree with everything she said to Kaladin, but I understand why she did and can respect all she accomplished.
Regarding Syl’s aunt. I think it is personally still open whether or not she ever bonded a radiant. What Notum explained was that after Honor stopped making windspren for awhile, the Stormfather took over. Syl was born among that group, and among that group she was the only one to survive due to her radiant dying prior to the Recreance. So there could be other honorspren that had bonded radiants in the epochs past, who’s radiant then died, and they did not bond another yet when the Recreance happened. But in this case I am going on memory and have not had a chance to look up quotes, so I could totally be wrong. Might have quotes later today.
I am not sure personally that we can say definitely about Ulim and Ixli yet as we know very little about voidspren. It is a valid interpretation, but we do not know if they are not bonded to another entity that allows them to act that way. We also do not know if voidspren act completely different and uniquely in this regard, which does not negate the rule applying to regular spren. So still a lot we do not know yet
Now regarding the well, a lot of this I am going on recollection, so I want to do a bit digging before I reply.
edit: after re reading your post, I am a bit confused. What do you mean about the TLR having Hoid’s flute? I thought you meant when Shallan infiltrates Amaram’s mansion, and notices he has flutes, and I recalled reading somewhere that among those flutes, was Hoids. Did I misread a prior comment of yours? I did not realize you were referring to the Lord Ruler. I thought you said Amaram. I will need to re-read your other comments.
edit 2: ah I see where the confusion came in now. When you referred to “a certain someone” you meant the Lord Ruler, and was referring to what Hoid did after he grabbed the bead. You posit that the flute was originally the Lord Ruler’s, and that Hoid stole that. Then Hoid gave it to Kaladin who lose it. Then Amaram found it and it was among his collection. I do not think that is the case, but that is just a hunch of my own, nothing to back it up yet as I did not do any research concerning it, as I did not understand that was what you were saying lol
scath@86, I interpreted the Laral situation much like you did, and had intended to post the same quotes in response to Isilel when I had a chance. Thanks for saving me some time. :-) I took their interactions to mean they both had a crush on each other, and neither knew at the time that their fathers were plotting their betrothal. Laral thought the only way she could marry Kaladin would be if he were a lighteyes, so she pushed the shardblade idea onto him, thinking it would their only chance at a real relationship. He was a clueless 12 year old boy and noticed none of this. Now she is all grown up and much more practical, and is no longer living the fantasy of her cute darkeyed boy friend turning into a lighteyes and marrying her. It’s ironic that he went and did the very think she wanted him to, and more.
One small thing I disagree with… I think she kept looking toward the manor because she knew her father was sick and was worried. The nurses probably sent her out of the house while Lirin tended to him. Her whole life changed on that day.
@87 Artemis
Lol glad to be of assistance. That is a good point that her father could have been sick enough at that point to worry her, which would result in her feeling added pressure and lead her to push Kaladin more to become a soldier.
@84 Isilel
So I had some time to do some research and these are my findings:
First, I did confirm that the scene with Notum is what I indicated. Honor used to make the honorspren. He stopped. The stormfather took over and made a bunch. Syl was among that bunch. One assumes if Syl refers to an aunt, then that aunt should be older than her so her aunt was around during the time where bonding Radiants was fine. Syl bonded a radiant. Radiant died. Syl goes comatose. Recreance happens killing all of the group Syl was a member of, except her since she wasn’t bonded. Stormfather doesn’t make any honor spren for a long time. Stormfather then makes a very small amount of honorspren. Those honorspren make honorspren of their own, of which Notum is the great great grandchild. So Syl’s aunt could have never bonded a radiant, or could have bonded a radiant and that radiant died prior to the Recreance.
Second, regarding mistborn, This is the order that things occured, and my own thoughts. I shall white it out to follow your suit:
1. Kelsier died, then got attached to the well
2. Lord Ruler died and left for the Beyond
3. Hoid showed up, dived into the well, and grabbed the bead
4. Kelsier reads a pulse from the Well showing Hoid at Terris
5. Vin reaches the well
6. Kelsier stabs Elend
7. Ruin freed
8. Kelsier freed
9. Vin sees Hoid as a beggar
So this brings us to your response. How could Hoid have dived into the Well to get to the Physical Realm, and leave the cavern without being an Allomancer capable of using pushes and pulls coupled with duralumin? So first, if he burned the bead, he wouldn’t need to use duralumin (even though he would have access to it), to move the door because Elend is stronger than Vin due to being a pure lerasium mistborn. Elend’s pushes and pulls are more powerful, Vin is just more skillful. So if Hoid took the bead, then he would be a lerasium mistborn with all the strength they are heir to. Second, I poored over every scene I could find describing multiple stashes, and there is never mentioned any metal inlays on the inside of the door in order to open it from the inside.This leads me to believe Hoid used some other manner to physically push outwards on the door enough to get out. Now I bold what I am about to write to stress a few things. I understand what I posit is a stretch. What you suggest Hoid did is far more plausible and my comment about the door I fully admit is nitpicking. It could be said that he was somehow able to reach the metal inlays outside the door and iron pull on them, while steel pushing on the door to open it from inside. It could also be said that there were metal inlays on the inside of the door, but Brandon just didn’t think it was important to mention. Either way, I personally do not think Hoid burned the bead, and could have used other means to gain the powers at a later date, but I do admit and concede that what evidence I found to support that is rather loose.
Now regarding the Lord Ruler and Hoids flute. I have found some WoB that should interest you. Enjoy :)
Questioner
My question for you is this I got the heeby-jeebies when Shallan heard about Amaram’s collection of flutes within just a few pages of Wit bringing up the flute Kaladin lost?
All I can think of is that either: Wit’s flute will end up among Amaram’s collection to resurface later or In his work with the Sons of Honor, Amaram or his fellows have stumbled across some flute-related magic or splinterization and his flutes are the brethren and sistren of Wit’s flute.
Is either of these the case? Or is there some other significance to Amaram’s collection of nigh forbidden flutes?
Brandon Sanderson
It is significant. It is not a huge deal, but it is significant.
Questioner
Are we going to see Hoid’s flute again?
Brandon Sanderson
Hoid is very disappointed in the loss of his flute and would like to recover it.
Questioner
Is the flute that Vin saw in the Lord Ruler’s secret room in Well of Ascension the same flute that Hoid gives to Kaladin in The Way of Kings?
Brandon Sanderson
RAFO. The origins of that flute will be revealed at some point.
Questioner
Did the Lord Ruler have any hobbies / anything he just enjoyed doing not related to being a tyrant?
Brandon Sanderson
He did. Actually, across a thousand years he tried pretty much everything. He was most fond of music.
Questioner
Composing, playing, or listening to?
Brandon Sanderson
Playing and listening to. Not composing.
Questioner
Did he perhaps play the flute?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, he did.
Questioner
Is that the flute Hoid gave to Kaladin?
Brandon Sanderson
RAFO
edit: to clarify when I refer to metal inlays inside the door, I am referring to the inlays in the floor. So for instance at Kredick Shaw, there were metal inlays in the floor in front of the door, and metal plates in the door. Vin anchored herself by pulling on the metal inlays in the floor, while pulling on the plates in the door. Once through the door, there were no comments on metal inlays on the floor directly on the other side. She comments later in the cavern on how the metal was used to hide the door. Not writing this to prove any point, just re-read my post and was concerned the way I wrote it was confusing at that part.
Ok just typing this part to indicate the whited out portion ended.
@83 E S Lavall:
A very interesting idea. I don’t know about the side-effect being “nasty” per se, but maybe something contrary to Hoid’s aims. Like, could it be that becoming a Mistborn would over-write Hoid’s other investiture, while turning into a Misting, even multiple one, wouldn’t? Or that he can hold only so much investiture and he still needs to gather other Shards magics, so he has to leave some room in his Spirit-web for them?
@Scáth, Artemis:
My position on Laral’s feelings is pretty different, i.e. that she had more idea about the agreement between Wistiow and Lirin that their chidlren would marry than Kal, and while she liked Kaladin well enough, she very much wanted to remain a lady. That’s why she was pushing Kaladin towards earning a shardblade and becoming a lighteyes. She didn’t want to wed a darkeyes and yet knew that it was pretty much a done deal. I have quoted Lirin on “promises” about the union in my previous post and how he saw his theft of the spheres in that light.
Let’s not pretend that Laral actually “chose” Kaladin, or that she was old enough to make such decisions or be “in love” when this conversation happened. Yes, they were childhood friends and yes, some attraction grew once they entered adolescence, but I have to reiterate again that it happened because they were the only kids of even remotely comparable social position in the town and because their parents purposefully threw them together a lot.There wasn’t any star-crossed romance there on her part and, in fact, Laral seemed to be quite happy with Rillir Roshone, once he entered the picture. There was little functional difference between Kaladin and Rillir for her in that she didn’t chose either, but liked them well enough. In fact, she seemed _more_ taken with Rillir, but it is difficult to compare, as she was also older by then.
Speaking of Syl’s aunt, I have looked at Notum’s explanation and he doesn’t explicitely mention the fate of honorspren created by Honor himself, only those made by the Stormfather… yet elsewhere in the 3 books it is often mentioned that _all_ “adult” spren of the Nahel peoples died – which is why they don’t know what exactly happened during the Recreance. As the first batch of the _Stormfather’s_ spren were “adult” enough to have been bonded and become dead-eyes during the Recreance – all but Syl, who was in coma; we have to assume that all of the Honor’s honorspren suffered the same fate.
And that Syl’s “aunt” is actually a younger/older “sister”, one of the 10 created by the Stormfather after the Recreance. Since, according to Notum:
“So, in answer to your question, yes, Sylphrena is both old and young. Old of form, but young of mind.”
Scath:
Thanks for searching out all the Mistborn flute-realted WoBs! That was intriguing indeed and only goes to show that nothing is new under the moon :D.
Mistborn, Secret History Spoilers,
I tried to white-out, but couldn’t post with it for some reason, so spoilers below. First posting without the white-out, then editing it in seems to do the trick:
I wish that we had seen more of TLR when he wasn’t killing someone or being killed himself! And yea, it certainly looks likely that Hoid’s flute once belonged to Rashek. My spin on this as it turns out not so original idea was that maybe Rashek received the flute from Hoid in the first place, before his Acsension, just like Kaladin did a thousand and half years later ;). Is this some kind of portent for Kal’s future? (I hope not).
Concerning entrances and exits from the supply caches and Allomancy requirements to use them:
We have no idea if Elend as a lerasium Mistborn could have opened the Kredik Shaw entrance without Duralumin, since that was never tried on page. Vin + Duralumin was stronger than Elend without. We also have a good reason to think that Hoid didn’t become a Mistborn, with all the hedging in WoBs, and his strength as a Misting would depend on how much lerasium he put in each alloy, etc.
We know that exiting the caches did indeed require the use of Steel Push and Iron Pull because that’s how Yomen trapped Vin in one in Fadrex. He removed the metal plates from the door and she couldn’t get out:
White-out end.
Ha, you guys are great. While I vaguely remember Hoid playing a flute, I can’t say I retained any memories of flutes belonging to Amaram or the Lord Ruler. :) It never even occurred to me there was a connection there.
@89 Isilel
Personally I took your quote from Lirin to say that whatever highlord would take over, wouldn’t honor it against everyone’s wishes. In fact if we finish the quote you reference:
“Wistiow was not lucid during the final days, Kal” he whispered “i knew that, with his death, we would lose, the promise of union. Laral had not reached her day of majority, and the new citylord wouldn’t let a darkeyes take her inheritance through marriage“
Lirin says so himself. He is worried because Laral isn’t old enough to claim her own inheritance, so it wouldn’t be up to her. If he was concerned that she would be against it, then he would have said something like “We were lucky Laral hadn’t reached her day of majority yet, but unfortunately that would mean we would be subject to any lighteyed city lord. They wouldn’t allow a darkeyes to take her inheritance through marriage.”
It is commented by Lirin, Kaladin, and others in the book how Wistiow was a very nice light eyes and was good friends with Lirin, who is a dark eyes. He didn’t hold to the prejudices. Him even being open to his only daughter marrying a darkeyes is a huge demonstration of this. As you said, Wistiow and Laral wouldn’t gain anything from her being married to Kaladin. Part of the marriage promise was that Kaladin first go to Kharbranth and return a trained surgeon. If she knew of the deal, she would know of that part. That would then imply to me that she deliberately lied to Kaladin twice in a row about not knowing he was being sent off to be a surgeon. My mentality is we have two ways of seeing Wistiow:
Wistiow is a nice and caring lighteyes, that loves his daughter. This would mean he either sees she has a crush on Kaladin, and he respects Lirin so agrees to helping raise up Kaladin enough to marry the two. Or if Laral wouldn’t want to marry Kaladin (like you posit), he would not force her, so this whole shardblade thing would be a non issue
Wistiow is a “typical” lighteyes and is only concerned with furthering his own dynasty, so he made the deal with Lirin feeling it would strengthen his house by bringing in a Kharbanthian surgeon and help the town. This I feel is a stretch as a lighteyes, even a minor one, would still bring more to the household than Kaladin. So again Laral wouldn’t need to convince Kaladin to get a shardblade, as she could be arranged with plenty of lighteyes that would jump at a chance to own land (not all lighteyes are landed owners, in fact quite a few aren’t)
Personally I feel needing Laral to:
1. lie to Kaladin
2. purposely know of the marriage plan, but decide to hide this knowledge
3. bet on an alternate plan of marrying Kaladin when you are saying she does not even want to marry Kaladin
4. Ignore the numerous options and resources for her to get out of it
Feels like too many hurdles to jump through. But that is my personal reading on it. So I guess agree to disagree
I never thought to think of the Lord Ruler’s flute, so I definitely learned another thing today :)
As to the rest of the mistborn discussion:
We kind of do know that Elend would be able to without duralumin. Vin needed duralumin coupled with soothing or rioting to gain the initial control of the Koloss. After that it is easy to maintain. Every instance in the books that she goes to control a new batch of Koloss, she uses duralumin. Elend does not, and it is specifically commented on how it is his strength as a lerasium mistborn that allows him to do so while she cannot. It is also commented throughout the book how his pushes and pulls are far stronger than hers, but it is due to her skill and finesse that she is able to accomplish more than him. He has more brute strength, she has more skill. I do agree depending on how much lerasium is included in the alloy would probably effect the strength of the resulting misting.
So again, there is more to the quote to you are referencing. I included it below:
“Yomen had apparently removed the metal plates inside the door, the ones that an Allomancer could Push or Pull on the open it. That left the door as simply a stone block. With duralumin enhanced pewter, she should have been able to push even that open. Unfortunately, she found it difficult to get leverage on the floor, which sloped down away from the block. In addition, they must have done something to the hinges or perhaps piled up more rock against the other side for she couldn’t get the door to budge.“
So again, only metal plates in the door. No mention of metal inlays in the floor. Vin says herself she should be able to push out with duralumin pewter, but realizes they put in additional measures to prevent that. Measures that would not have been in place for Hoid when leaving the Well. This says to me Hoid could have used physical means to leave the room and close the door.
White out end
I think Kaladin was flying quite a bit too slow. Couldn’t he use multiple Lashings? With just one Lashing it makes sense for air resistance to give a terminal velocity in the neighborhood of 80mph. Windshields, really? The Kaladin flying through the clash of two violent Storms isn’t going to have a problem flying a good 500mph like airplanes typically do (provided he has enough Stormlight, of course).
Admittedly the use of Stormlight to heal the damage done to the body by flying that fast might be a little more than would be optimal use (for farthest journey). So maybe more like 200mph would have been more optimal. I don’t know, but 80 seems a little slow, that’s all.
@@@@@ 45 – … the world really does seem to shift when you have children … Motherhood has changed the way I interact with history and current events …
I know exactly what you mean. Pacific Rim came out the year my daughter was born. I watched it again five years later and saw the little girl stumbling and crying in flashback, and immediately had to tamp down enough rage to smite a kaiju.
Even years later I still feel gross that she defends Roshone and Syl gives her props like it was two sided and kaladins family deserved what happened for being uppity dark eyes.. like wtf??
I’m totally fine with her having that stance, she was in an awful position being forced to marry him and as he’s softened over the years it totally makes sense she would defend him.. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an absolute scumbag racist and spitefully ruined Kaladins family over a few spheres over petty crap. Lirin has his own issues, and as the story progresses obviously eye color doesn’t matter but in their caste system in the flashbacks we can still obviously take their side and the cook tries to make it seem it had a grey area where it didn’t
That said, him revealing himself as a brightlord and radiant is so goddamn good
Syls line about the wind knowing him is a lot more intriguing now that we know the wind is a god that was just muted by Rayse.. And would be an answer to the other voice she heard, the crystal one